Classical Numismatics Discussion
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 110001 times)
Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #275 on: September 10, 2011, 09:22:42 pm »

Then the second is possibly a tooled fake. It wouldn't be the first, let alone only one,  by any stretch of the imagination.
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Mark Z
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« Reply #276 on: September 10, 2011, 10:23:47 pm »

Then the second is possibly a tooled fake. It wouldn't be the first, let alone only one,  by any stretch of the imagination.

lol that's true.

For a while there it seemed like another one like these was popping up on eBay every week.

mz
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« Reply #277 on: September 24, 2011, 04:12:14 pm »

This Kushan coin is one of my favorite tooled coins.  I really like the three-fingered Santa Claus, but not as much as as the goggle-eyed horse rider.
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Mark Z
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« Reply #278 on: September 24, 2011, 04:40:01 pm »

That is too funny.

I'm only sorry I did not find that one.

mz
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #279 on: September 26, 2011, 08:55:21 am »

Another day, another tooled coin.
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« Reply #280 on: October 02, 2011, 06:45:57 am »

From e*ay. What's your opinion?
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Mark Z
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« Reply #281 on: October 02, 2011, 08:06:52 am »

We have discussed this seller's offerings in this thread in the past so I'm already suspicious.

mz
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Aarmale
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« Reply #282 on: October 02, 2011, 09:03:25 am »

From e*ay. What's your opinion?
It looks tooled and smoothed.  Really bad.
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« Reply #283 on: November 03, 2011, 03:32:28 pm »

For tooled coins, Forum normally does not include a grade, except TOOLED.  We avoid selling tooled coins but if we are stuck with one and the other alternative is throwing it in the garbage, we usually put it on eBay.

I would be open to buying tooled Tacitus's ... let me know when you are offering them on Ebay.... As long as I know a head of time they are tooled, I would bid on them
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #284 on: November 04, 2011, 08:20:57 am »

Here's one to start the month of November.

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« Reply #285 on: November 04, 2011, 09:17:19 am »

These larger coins of Julian II seem to be a favorite target of tools...er, toolers, don't they?

You definitely need to watch out for the bullsh*t with these coins  Roll Eyes

mz
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« Reply #286 on: November 06, 2011, 01:23:08 am »

Republican As, currently on sale by a generally well respected vendor: it's so badly tooled that one can't even tell which era of the Roman Republic it comes from, but I'm very afraid, from the shape of the prow, that the seller has converted an extremely rare coin type, an As of C.Fonteius of 114BC which would ordinarily sell for hundreds even in worn condition, to an extremely common type (RRC 56) but tooled. Here is an As of C.FONT for comparison, note the prow shape:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ahala_rome/3417418900/lightbox/
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #287 on: November 06, 2011, 09:11:46 pm »

I hope it wasn't the seller who did the tooling.  That sort of treatment condemns the coin to an unwanted state at any price.
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #288 on: November 24, 2011, 06:13:58 pm »

Not a hair out of place...
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« Reply #289 on: December 06, 2011, 07:37:42 am »

This week's tooled entry:
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areich
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« Reply #290 on: December 06, 2011, 07:55:01 am »

To save time:

[LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

a high percentage of the Greek bronzes are tooled.
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #291 on: December 06, 2011, 08:25:38 am »

To save time:

http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewsale&sid=500&cid=19571&s=b

a high percentage of the Greek bronzes are tooled.

This from the seller of many many of the tooled bronzes mentioned above in the last month or two. The linked example includes a particularly nasty tooled aes grave which might fetch a lot of money.
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #292 on: December 06, 2011, 08:56:51 am »

This week's tooled entry:


The prior assumption is that this is tooled, if only by association with the very many badly tooled coins coming from this seller currently.

However if I'd seen it elsewhere it would have passed me (as an expert in the series) at an initial glance because the prow design and lettering is correct in every detail for this issue, which compared with the really terrible tooled coins coming out of this seller at present does suggest the original coin was not bad to begin with. But note:
- where the "X" is on the side of the ship has not been tooled out
- where the all-seeing eye us on the side of the ship has not been tooled out
The 2011 engraver did not tool out these details presumably because he did not know what he was supposed to be tooling. Where you see the X and the eye shows the level of detail on the original. Much much less than on the tooled coin.

No bronzes, unless with untouched hard patina and clear strike effects and lustre, are now to be trusted from this source (which is of course the same source mentioned by andreas in his posting about tooled Greek bronzes). One source.
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« Reply #293 on: December 06, 2011, 09:00:19 am »

Maybe the source for the Lanz auction is the same that Peus had:

http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewsale&sid=476&cid=18606&pg=2&search=&s=b
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #294 on: December 06, 2011, 09:13:24 am »


I'm sure it is.

The good thing is that knowledgeable people can tell these are tooled coins. Some of the Republican bronzes have been of such incredibly bad style that they amount to pure inventions.

The bad thing is that less knowledgeable people are hurt by such sales from a previously reputable name, specially where tooling is not specifically mentioned.

The worst thing is that some day these currently-incompetent toolers may acquire the skills to know what they are supposed to be making.
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areich
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« Reply #295 on: December 06, 2011, 09:37:58 am »

It's just hearsay but apparently whoever's responsible at Peus didn't know they were tooled. Of course it's just as bad in a different way since it is really obvious that they are tooled.
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mwilson603
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« Reply #296 on: December 06, 2011, 12:41:34 pm »

Just out of interest, and I know that we are not strictly speaking discussing fakes, but why hasn't Lanz been nominated for the NFSL yet?  Surely anything this badly tooled has got to qualify them?
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Mark
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #297 on: December 06, 2011, 02:23:48 pm »

Just out of interest, and I know that we are not strictly speaking discussing fakes, but why hasn't he been nominated for the NFSL yet?  Surely anything this badly tooled has got to qualify them?
regards
Mark

The dealer has a many-decade-long positive reputation and is an expert and respected numismatist who is known for selling good quality always-genuine coins and to reacting immediately and positively to any issue with a purchaser. It appears he is now selling a group of genuine but tooled coins. I think this is crazy but not malevolent. In the related ebay sales he has generally described the coins as tooled. There is also a grey area of coins which seem to be lightly tooled but not marked as such, and it appears the other dealer mentioned on this thread is selling similar pieces. Remember the criterion for NFSL is that there be unquestionable and deliberate deception. I'm really sure the dealer in this case has tried to point out where coins were tooled and may have overlooked others. No deliberate deception. In the case of the coin mentioned by Gengis Jon it requires a degree of expertise in the particular series to note the tooling so it is not blatent. None of us like these coins. We are all talking and complaining about them, and not just on Forvm. In my own posts I'm trying to highlight the issue. But I have the impression that the dealer is trying to be transparent by noting heavily tooled coins as tooled. Although I think he is completely mistaken to offer such coins for sale, allied with his long time positive reputation it would be inappropriate to regard him as notorious anything. Just mistaken. Sometimes judgment calls have to take into account longer term reputation issues beyond a few coins for sale.
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« Reply #298 on: December 06, 2011, 02:36:46 pm »

Like with so many other dealers it is an inherited reputation that is eroding quickly. Grades are exaggerated and manipulation played down, first on Ebay, later in the proper auctions. On Ebay it is perfectly normal to find coins there described as 'lightly smoothed' that are heavily tooled and that is intentional. Of course it would open a can of worms to nominate sellers like this for the NFSL. The best solution is to stay informed, keep your eyes open and don't blindly trust in a seller's 'reputation' or knowledge. More than a few relatively well-known internet-based sellers e.g. just copy coin descriptions and reference numbers from the web, like most new collectors do.
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #299 on: December 06, 2011, 02:43:11 pm »

Like with so many other dealers it is an inherited reputation that is eroding quickly. Grades are exaggerated and manipulation played down, first on Ebay, later in the proper auctions. On Ebay it is perfectly normal to find coins there described as 'lightly smoothed' that are heavily tooled and that is intentional. Of course it would open a can of worms to nominate sellers like this for the NFSL. The best solution is to stay informed, keep your eyes open and don't blindly trust in a seller's 'reputation' or knowledge. More than a few relatively well-known internet-based sellers e.g. just copy coin descriptions and reference numbers from the web, like most new collectors do.

Andreas I'm assuming that on the German language forums more is perhaps being said, given that the coins seem to be originating in Germany. Good comments above.
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here « previous next »
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