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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Forum (Moderator: goldenancients)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 87245 times)
Reid Goldsborough
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« Reply #250 on: August 25, 2011, 03:33:57 pm »

I'd have to spend time I don't have to track down the reference or references, but I recall reading that Owls found outside of Greece, in the East, in lands at the time that were part of the Achaemenid Persian empire, are found much more often test cut than those found in Greece. But only a tiny fraction of Owls hoards like other hoards are documented, so the evidence I suspect is fairly sparse.
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« Reply #251 on: August 26, 2011, 03:31:29 pm »

I've certainly heard that they're more likely to be cut outside Greece, but I can't remember any more than that.
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #252 on: August 27, 2011, 05:45:00 pm »

I'd have to spend time I don't have to track down the reference or references, but I recall reading that Owls found outside of Greece, in the East, in lands at the time that were part of the Achaemenid Persian empire, are found much more often test cut than those found in Greece. But only a tiny fraction of Owls hoards like other hoards are documented, so the evidence I suspect is fairly sparse.

True that in Egyptian and Eastern eastern finds frequency of cut and multiply cut owls is much higher than in Greece and surrounds to the extent that some finds consist of a majority of cut and/or punch marked owls e.g. The1989 Syria Hoard.  For some papers which touch on the subject and contain further references, refer to Peter van Alfen's two articles in AJN 14 (2002):

The owls from the 1989 Syria Hoard with a review of Macedonian coinage in Egypt.
Two unpublished hoards and other owls from Egypt


The last documents the interesting Endicott's Hoard which consist exclusively of multiply punch marked owls which may been seen as a logical progression from the multiply cutting administrative approach. The practice of marking coins (of which multiple systematic cuts are but one means) evolved with time and shows a significant geographical and temporal distribution that hints at different practices in different regions at different times.  One rule or theory of marking is not applicable throughout the Mediterraneanand adjacent Persian lands and/or throughout time. To quote van Alfen: Over the course of time, from the sixth century BC on, the use and function of countermarks presumably underwent gradual development.: "it is the common view that the early countermarks were private marks of ownership or guarantees of worth, but that during the hellenistic period countermarking became a monopoly of civic or royal authority. (Howego 1985, Le Rider 1975). Marking coins with countermarks, cuts, and graffiti was enormously widespread practice in the Levant and Egypt during the Persian Period (sixth to fourth centuries BC; Elayi and Lemaire 1988), arguably more so than in the Aegean......

From another time and place, but another example of what is usually interpreted to be a test cut but is in fact an official act of "damnatio memoriae".... one of the first in the ancient Greek world? http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=52033.0

Anyway interesting as this is it is a long way off topic for this thread...tooling. Perhaps the subject of coin marking should be broken out into a separate discussion thread as there is a lot that can be said and many examples shown, which raise multiple questions as well as given multiple insights into the practice of cutting and marking in general.
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #253 on: August 29, 2011, 05:39:48 am »

I love this Syracuse issue and the coin reminds me that I need to acquire one for my zoo...but unfortunately not this one. 

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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #254 on: August 29, 2011, 07:35:13 pm »

Don't you just love the finely tooled detail of the mane on the lion skin headdress of Herakles.....

Accompanied by this wonderful eye popping description... VF with nice toning. Some hatching on the obverse which could be an inscription. A scarce and desirable lifetime issue from the popular Egyptian mint.
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« Reply #255 on: September 06, 2011, 07:18:30 am »

Tooled and smoothed.
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« Reply #256 on: September 06, 2011, 07:40:51 am »

Tryphon, "the Tooled".
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« Reply #257 on: September 06, 2011, 08:26:29 am »

Don't you just love the finely tooled detail of the mane on the lion skin headdress of Herakles.....

Accompanied by this wonderful eye popping description... VF with nice toning. Some hatching on the obverse which could be an inscription. A scarce and desirable lifetime issue from the popular Egyptian mint.

Looks like someone missed their mark trying to tool the chin too!
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #258 on: September 06, 2011, 03:38:47 pm »

Don't you just love the finely tooled detail of the mane on the lion skin headdress of Herakles.....

Accompanied by this wonderful eye popping description... VF with nice toning. Some hatching on the obverse which could be an inscription. A scarce and desirable lifetime issue from the popular Egyptian mint.

Looks like someone missed their mark trying to tool the chin too!

  Grin The more i look at this coin the more convinced I become that it is not simply tooled, but more likely a TOOLED CAST FAKE!  The best of all deceptive worlds  evil
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« Reply #259 on: September 06, 2011, 03:51:47 pm »

Could one make a fake coin look more authentic by tooling it, and then by saying that the coin was tooled when selling it so stylistic irregularities on the coin would not arouse suspicion?  police
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« Reply #260 on: September 06, 2011, 03:59:14 pm »

Could one make a fake coin look more authentic by tooling it, and then by saying that the coin was tooled when selling it so stylistic irregularities on the coin would not arouse suspicion?  police

Anything is possible with these sort of fraudsters.
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Mark Z
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« Reply #261 on: September 06, 2011, 04:41:48 pm »

I'm pretty sure we've discussed this coin in the past and had decided that it was a total fake as opposed to retooled.

However, here is something that caught my eye:

"I purchased this coin several months ago on eBay.  The seller guaranteed the coin to be genuine.  Well the coin is 100% genuine as shown by getting an NGC label.  But unfortunately the coin has been enhanced and impaired by having the details re-cut.

I have no idea how much re-cutting took place.

The color of the coin is simply wonderful with light green patina.  

So through my mistake someone has the opportunity to acquire a truly wonderful looking ancient bronze that although impaired really does not look it unless you know what to look for.

I have no idea how to price such a piece but I am starting it at $30 which does not cover my NGC fee when you factor in the round trip registered mail cost."


Interestingly, it's currently going for $250 USD with a little over 2 hours to go.

mz

EDIT: sold for $350!
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« Reply #262 on: September 06, 2011, 04:47:10 pm »

heres one of Pius
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« Reply #263 on: September 06, 2011, 10:32:05 pm »

Is it offered as being tooled? I see no tooling at all.

Stefan
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #264 on: September 06, 2011, 10:40:02 pm »

I'm pretty sure we've discussed this coin in the past and had decided that it was a total fake as opposed to retooled.

To my eye coin does not appear to be tooled (but I am far from expert in this type of coin).  However, I would not be surprised to learn that tooling fakes is but one tactic used by the fraudster to divert attention from the fake nature of the coin.  Similarly the pretense that a coin is tooled could be also used to divert attention from the fake nature of a coin. People focus on the tooling, rather than the authenticity of the host and many believe (mistakenly) that any tooled coin must be authentic, based on the naive assumption that no-one would tool a fake, which is off course completely illogical reasoning. A faker will do anything and adopt any tactic to move his wares.
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #265 on: September 07, 2011, 03:52:25 am »

This is a very interesting one and shows the lengths to which some fraudsters will go....

CNG's comment on withdrawing the coin from auction ....

WITHDRAWN. This is a genuine billon coin that has been mostly re-engraved. The fields have been lowered, especially toward the center of the coin, to produce the new or improved design. All the central detail is heavily tooled, although the legends are mostly original. The color is silvery because this is a billon coin with some silver content. Note how the coin is more silvery in the centers where the surface has been most reduced--the outer part of the coin has genuine oxidation, whereas the centers have been reduced/tooled down to the interior of the flan. Unlike the obverse, though, some of the tooled areas on the reverse have had a new silver "wash" applied. This is clearly visible, under high magnification, along the contours of the relief. Overall, the outlines formed by the tooling on both sides are sharper than they would be from original striking.
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Mark Z
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« Reply #266 on: September 08, 2011, 07:46:49 am »

Lloyd,

The most interesting aspect of this coin is the hair. I've never seen anything like this.

Was it there before the retooling?

Are there other examples available for comparison?

mz

p.s. for me, the first red flag on this one is the overly-sharp/acutely-angled nose, which seems to be a hallmark of retooled coins.
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« Reply #267 on: September 08, 2011, 11:34:41 am »

Yes, the bust type with lion's scalp is known (though not on antoniniani) but stylewise this one is off. I am surprised the tooling had not been noted before.

Lars
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« Reply #268 on: September 08, 2011, 01:02:12 pm »

Yes, the bust type with lion's scalp is known (though not on antoniniani) but stylewise this one is off. I am surprised the tooling had not been noted before.

Lars

Lars,

On which denomination would we see a bust with a lion's scalp?

mz
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« Reply #269 on: September 08, 2011, 03:53:58 pm »

Out of my memory and without checking: I recall having seen it on medallions and on denarii. I don't think it exists on antoniniani, which is hardly surprising as it would be difficult to combine it with a radiate crown.

Lars
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #270 on: September 08, 2011, 03:59:22 pm »

.... but stylewise this one is off. I am surprised the tooling had not been noted before.

Probably the result of pressure of time when cataloging 2,200 items for the auction.  Very much to their credit CNG have very publicly set the record straight (I lifted it straight from the auction website) rather than simply withdraw the coin without statement/explanation.  I admire that sort of responsible attitude.
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« Reply #271 on: September 08, 2011, 04:13:55 pm »

The original (very long!) description had some rather strange explanation as to why their is no radiate crown on this specimen (a normal die recut in antiquity), so obviously they took the time to check it closely. But yes, errors always happen and it is praisable that they added an explanation to the website as to why it was withdrawn.

By the way, I was wrong in saying that the bust type doesn't exist for antoniniani (my day was too long, I guess): it does (cf. Göbl 355 ff.), but the style is very different.

Lars
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Mark Z
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« Reply #272 on: September 10, 2011, 08:51:33 pm »

I'm pretty sure we've discussed this coin in the past and had decided that it was a total fake as opposed to retooled.

To my eye coin does not appear to be tooled (but I am far from expert in this type of coin).  However, I would not be surprised to learn that tooling fakes is but one tactic used by the fraudster to divert attention from the fake nature of the coin.  Similarly the pretense that a coin is tooled could be also used to divert attention from the fake nature of a coin. People focus on the tooling, rather than the authenticity of the host and many believe (mistakenly) that any tooled coin must be authentic, based on the naive assumption that no-one would tool a fake, which is off course completely illogical reasoning. A faker will do anything and adopt any tactic to move his wares.

Lloyd,

I was doing a little research on this coin and browsing back through some links and it had popped up quite few times a while back.

We talked about it at length here:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=53363.0

and here:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=67258.0

I think one of these links is to this thread.

mz
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #273 on: September 10, 2011, 09:08:08 pm »

Mark - they are two different coins as far as I can see. Photos below for comparison.  The first is the one I made comment upon regarding that it did not appear tooled (at least to my inexperienced eye). The second is from the thread
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=67258.0 and is clearly tooled.  


Note : on one coin (not tooled?) Hadrian is diademed and laureate on the other the laurel wreath is absent (tooled away?).
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Mark Z
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« Reply #274 on: September 10, 2011, 09:10:48 pm »

We had discussed the notion there seemed to be several iterations of the same coin and maybe they were cast fakes.

But, yes, these are two different coins.

On the bottom one, it looks like the wreath ties have been removed but there is still an artifact of them having been there.

The shapes are similar, for sure.

mz

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