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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Forum (Moderator: goldenancients)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 62191 times)
Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #300 on: September 06, 2011, 03:38:47 pm »

Don't you just love the finely tooled detail of the mane on the lion skin headdress of Herakles.....

Accompanied by this wonderful eye popping description... VF with nice toning. Some hatching on the obverse which could be an inscription. A scarce and desirable lifetime issue from the popular Egyptian mint.

Looks like someone missed their mark trying to tool the chin too!

  Grin The more i look at this coin the more convinced I become that it is not simply tooled, but more likely a TOOLED CAST FAKE!  The best of all deceptive worlds  evil
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Aarmale
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« Reply #301 on: September 06, 2011, 03:51:47 pm »

Could one make a fake coin look more authentic by tooling it, and then by saying that the coin was tooled when selling it so stylistic irregularities on the coin would not arouse suspicion?  police
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #302 on: September 06, 2011, 03:59:14 pm »

Could one make a fake coin look more authentic by tooling it, and then by saying that the coin was tooled when selling it so stylistic irregularities on the coin would not arouse suspicion?  police

Anything is possible with these sort of fraudsters.
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Mark Z
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« Reply #303 on: September 06, 2011, 04:41:48 pm »

I'm pretty sure we've discussed this coin in the past and had decided that it was a total fake as opposed to retooled.

However, here is something that caught my eye:

"I purchased this coin several months ago on eBay.  The seller guaranteed the coin to be genuine.  Well the coin is 100% genuine as shown by getting an NGC label.  But unfortunately the coin has been enhanced and impaired by having the details re-cut.

I have no idea how much re-cutting took place.

The color of the coin is simply wonderful with light green patina.  

So through my mistake someone has the opportunity to acquire a truly wonderful looking ancient bronze that although impaired really does not look it unless you know what to look for.

I have no idea how to price such a piece but I am starting it at $30 which does not cover my NGC fee when you factor in the round trip registered mail cost."


Interestingly, it's currently going for $250 USD with a little over 2 hours to go.

mz

EDIT: sold for $350!
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Randygeki(h2)
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« Reply #304 on: September 06, 2011, 04:47:10 pm »

heres one of Pius
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quisquam
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« Reply #305 on: September 06, 2011, 10:32:05 pm »

Is it offered as being tooled? I see no tooling at all.

Stefan
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #306 on: September 06, 2011, 10:40:02 pm »

I'm pretty sure we've discussed this coin in the past and had decided that it was a total fake as opposed to retooled.

To my eye coin does not appear to be tooled (but I am far from expert in this type of coin).  However, I would not be surprised to learn that tooling fakes is but one tactic used by the fraudster to divert attention from the fake nature of the coin.  Similarly the pretense that a coin is tooled could be also used to divert attention from the fake nature of a coin. People focus on the tooling, rather than the authenticity of the host and many believe (mistakenly) that any tooled coin must be authentic, based on the naive assumption that no-one would tool a fake, which is off course completely illogical reasoning. A faker will do anything and adopt any tactic to move his wares.
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #307 on: September 07, 2011, 03:52:25 am »

This is a very interesting one and shows the lengths to which some fraudsters will go....

CNG's comment on withdrawing the coin from auction ....

WITHDRAWN. This is a genuine billon coin that has been mostly re-engraved. The fields have been lowered, especially toward the center of the coin, to produce the new or improved design. All the central detail is heavily tooled, although the legends are mostly original. The color is silvery because this is a billon coin with some silver content. Note how the coin is more silvery in the centers where the surface has been most reduced--the outer part of the coin has genuine oxidation, whereas the centers have been reduced/tooled down to the interior of the flan. Unlike the obverse, though, some of the tooled areas on the reverse have had a new silver "wash" applied. This is clearly visible, under high magnification, along the contours of the relief. Overall, the outlines formed by the tooling on both sides are sharper than they would be from original striking.
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Mark Z
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« Reply #308 on: September 08, 2011, 07:46:49 am »

Lloyd,

The most interesting aspect of this coin is the hair. I've never seen anything like this.

Was it there before the retooling?

Are there other examples available for comparison?

mz

p.s. for me, the first red flag on this one is the overly-sharp/acutely-angled nose, which seems to be a hallmark of retooled coins.
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« Reply #309 on: September 08, 2011, 11:34:41 am »

Yes, the bust type with lion's scalp is known (though not on antoniniani) but stylewise this one is off. I am surprised the tooling had not been noted before.

Lars
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Mark Z
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« Reply #310 on: September 08, 2011, 01:02:12 pm »

Yes, the bust type with lion's scalp is known (though not on antoniniani) but stylewise this one is off. I am surprised the tooling had not been noted before.

Lars

Lars,

On which denomination would we see a bust with a lion's scalp?

mz
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« Reply #311 on: September 08, 2011, 03:53:58 pm »

Out of my memory and without checking: I recall having seen it on medallions and on denarii. I don't think it exists on antoniniani, which is hardly surprising as it would be difficult to combine it with a radiate crown.

Lars
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #312 on: September 08, 2011, 03:59:22 pm »

.... but stylewise this one is off. I am surprised the tooling had not been noted before.

Probably the result of pressure of time when cataloging 2,200 items for the auction.  Very much to their credit CNG have very publicly set the record straight (I lifted it straight from the auction website) rather than simply withdraw the coin without statement/explanation.  I admire that sort of responsible attitude.
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« Reply #313 on: September 08, 2011, 04:13:55 pm »

The original (very long!) description had some rather strange explanation as to why their is no radiate crown on this specimen (a normal die recut in antiquity), so obviously they took the time to check it closely. But yes, errors always happen and it is praisable that they added an explanation to the website as to why it was withdrawn.

By the way, I was wrong in saying that the bust type doesn't exist for antoniniani (my day was too long, I guess): it does (cf. Göbl 355 ff.), but the style is very different.

Lars
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Mark Z
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« Reply #314 on: September 10, 2011, 08:51:33 pm »

I'm pretty sure we've discussed this coin in the past and had decided that it was a total fake as opposed to retooled.

To my eye coin does not appear to be tooled (but I am far from expert in this type of coin).  However, I would not be surprised to learn that tooling fakes is but one tactic used by the fraudster to divert attention from the fake nature of the coin.  Similarly the pretense that a coin is tooled could be also used to divert attention from the fake nature of a coin. People focus on the tooling, rather than the authenticity of the host and many believe (mistakenly) that any tooled coin must be authentic, based on the naive assumption that no-one would tool a fake, which is off course completely illogical reasoning. A faker will do anything and adopt any tactic to move his wares.

Lloyd,

I was doing a little research on this coin and browsing back through some links and it had popped up quite few times a while back.

We talked about it at length here:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=53363.0

and here:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=67258.0

I think one of these links is to this thread.

mz
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #315 on: September 10, 2011, 09:08:08 pm »

Mark - they are two different coins as far as I can see. Photos below for comparison.  The first is the one I made comment upon regarding that it did not appear tooled (at least to my inexperienced eye). The second is from the thread
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=67258.0 and is clearly tooled.  


Note : on one coin (not tooled?) Hadrian is diademed and laureate on the other the laurel wreath is absent (tooled away?).
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Mark Z
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« Reply #316 on: September 10, 2011, 09:10:48 pm »

We had discussed the notion there seemed to be several iterations of the same coin and maybe they were cast fakes.

But, yes, these are two different coins.

On the bottom one, it looks like the wreath ties have been removed but there is still an artifact of them having been there.

The shapes are similar, for sure.

mz

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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #317 on: September 10, 2011, 09:22:42 pm »

Then the second is possibly a tooled fake. It wouldn't be the first, let alone only one,  by any stretch of the imagination.
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Mark Z
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« Reply #318 on: September 10, 2011, 10:23:47 pm »

Then the second is possibly a tooled fake. It wouldn't be the first, let alone only one,  by any stretch of the imagination.

lol that's true.

For a while there it seemed like another one like these was popping up on eBay every week.

mz
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« Reply #319 on: September 24, 2011, 04:12:14 pm »

This Kushan coin is one of my favorite tooled coins.  I really like the three-fingered Santa Claus, but not as much as as the goggle-eyed horse rider.
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Mark Z
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« Reply #320 on: September 24, 2011, 04:40:01 pm »

That is too funny.

I'm only sorry I did not find that one.

mz
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #321 on: September 26, 2011, 08:55:21 am »

Another day, another tooled coin.
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« Reply #322 on: October 02, 2011, 06:45:57 am »

From e*ay. What's your opinion?
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Mark Z
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« Reply #323 on: October 02, 2011, 08:06:52 am »

We have discussed this seller's offerings in this thread in the past so I'm already suspicious.

mz
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Aarmale
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« Reply #324 on: October 02, 2011, 09:03:25 am »

From e*ay. What's your opinion?
It looks tooled and smoothed.  Really bad.
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היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Forum (Moderator: goldenancients)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here « previous next »
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