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Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 160708 times)

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Ghengis_Jon

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Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #175 on: March 18, 2011, 01:35:56 pm »
Yikes!

Offline Tacitus

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #176 on: March 19, 2011, 04:47:33 pm »
That hair would be bad in real life!

Ghengis_Jon

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Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #177 on: March 22, 2011, 07:30:31 am »
This hemilitron was listed as 'heavily tooled'.

Offline Tacitus

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #178 on: March 22, 2011, 10:08:41 pm »
When is a heavily tooled coin no longer worth anything?
Is there a line that someone can cross from tooling to creating?

Offline commodus

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #179 on: March 22, 2011, 11:13:56 pm »
Quote from: Tacitus on March 22, 2011, 10:08:41 pm
When is a heavily tooled coin no longer worth anything?
Is there a line that someone can cross from tooling to creating?

Yes, but as Justice Potter Stewart of the U.S. Supreme Court once said of pornography: "it is difficult to define, but I know it when I see it."
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #180 on: March 24, 2011, 05:45:05 pm »
Exactly. If the coin's rare, I could live with a little tooling, as long as it wasn't too blatant. But you can't count up the area worked on and calculate it that way, any more than you can define pornography on the basis on the number of square inches of flesh on display.
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Offline Aarmale

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #181 on: March 24, 2011, 09:30:08 pm »
How about this one:

It seems the whole bottom half of this coin is tooled, and more.
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Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #182 on: March 25, 2011, 06:45:05 am »
This is a very badly/dangerously tooled coin.  Bad in the sense of dangerous for numismatic study.  The tooling has created a mint control that does not exist in the emissions of the Baktrian Uncertain Mint C and if accepted blindly this would confuse, if not rewrite the history of Euthydemid mint operations in Baktria.

This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  To their credit CNG has identified quite explicitly in the description the tooling problem and the monogram issue:


BAKTRIA, Greco-Baktrian Kingdom. Euthydemos I. Circa 225-200 BC. AR Tetradrachm (27mm, 16.14 g, 6h). Uncertain Mint C. Struck circa 215-210 BC. Diademed head right / Herakles seated left on rock, holding club set on rocks beside his knee; monogram to outer right. Kritt C2; Bopearachchi Série 4A; SNG ANS 122. Good VF, some porosity, smoothing and tooling, with the monogram being incorrectly re-engraved.

This one is now for sale on [REMOVED BY ADMIN] at twice the price without reference to the tooling and completely incorrect monogram that results from the tooling.... see the potential to re-write history and/or screw numismatic research through the incomplete disclosure and actions of less than scrupulous reputable dealers?

As I said originally This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  

It saddens me that some dealers play to this sort of deception.

Offline benito

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #183 on: March 25, 2011, 07:40:56 am »
This is a very badly/dangerously tooled coin.  Bad in the sense of dangerous for numismatic study.  The tooling has created a mint control that does not exist in the emissions of the Baktrian Uncertain Mint C and if accepted blindly this would confuse, if not rewrite the history of Euthydemid mint operations in Baktria.

This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  To their credit CNG has identified quite explicitly in the description the tooling problem and the monogram issue:


BAKTRIA, Greco-Baktrian Kingdom. Euthydemos I. Circa 225-200 BC. AR Tetradrachm (27mm, 16.14 g, 6h). Uncertain Mint C. Struck circa 215-210 BC. Diademed head right / Herakles seated left on rock, holding club set on rocks beside his knee; monogram to outer right. Kritt C2; Bopearachchi Série 4A; SNG ANS 122. Good VF, some porosity, smoothing and tooling, with the monogram being incorrectly re-engraved.

This one is now for sale on [REMOVED BY ADMIN] at twice the price without reference to the tooling and completely incorrect monogram that results from the tooling.... see the potential to re-write history and/or screw numismatic research through the incomplete disclosure and actions of less than scrupulous reputable dealers?

As I said originally This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  

It saddens me that some dealers play to this sort of deception.

NOT exactly twice the price ,but almost. Taking into consideration the hammer price and buyers
premium its a circa 95 % mark up. Thats up to the seller .Not mentioning the tooling and other problems is another thing.

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #184 on: March 25, 2011, 08:07:49 am »
Of course it would be worth a lot more if the PK monogram were genuine.... because as a unique specimen of such it would re-write numismatic history! So is the non-disclosure of the falsely tooled monogram an omission of ignorance, or of design? I'll let you be the judge, but I am pretty certain of which is the case.

Ghengis_Jon

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Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #185 on: March 30, 2011, 07:16:55 am »
Shave and a haircut - 2 bits!


Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #186 on: March 30, 2011, 11:21:34 pm »
Shave and a haircut - 2 bits!

 ;D .... at least this one has a bit of rough charm to it (at least in my opinion).... I have received far worse haircuts and beard trims over the years and only wish I looked as ruggedly good after them.

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #187 on: March 31, 2011, 12:13:51 am »
Reminds me somewhat of a hobo nickel portrait......

Ghengis_Jon

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Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #188 on: April 13, 2011, 02:21:25 pm »
Offered as "minimally tooled".

Offline Mark Z

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #189 on: April 13, 2011, 03:07:31 pm »
I've noted this seller in the past and I have the feeling that I do not want to buy from him.

mz

Ghengis_Jon

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #190 on: April 18, 2011, 07:14:28 am »
Ya think there's been any tooling around the legends?


Offline Minos

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #191 on: April 18, 2011, 07:41:53 am »
A worthy coin in an unworthy condition :azn:

Offline Galaxy

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #192 on: April 18, 2011, 09:37:04 am »
Ghengis Jon, this Antoninus Pius coin is untouched

Ghengis_Jon

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #193 on: April 18, 2011, 02:25:46 pm »
Seller reports (on the Andy Pius) "...with evidence of tooling around the legends..."

Offline Galaxy

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #194 on: April 18, 2011, 02:28:29 pm »
He is probably mistaken, these sorts of depressions around the legend letters of large bronzes is not an uncommon phenomenon, this coin does not look tooled at all.

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #195 on: April 19, 2011, 10:54:28 am »
As Galaxy notes, depressions around the legend do not necessarily mean tooling.  Depressions can result from the flow of metal filling the dies.  I am not entirely sure of the physics but it does happen.  Also, reengraved/repaired dies sometimes result in similar looking depressions. There may be tooling on that coin, or perhaps not.     
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Offline Dk0311USMC

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #196 on: April 27, 2011, 10:34:35 pm »
Here is the most tooled coin I have. 

AS of Antoninus Pius.

Ghengis_Jon

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Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #197 on: May 03, 2011, 07:40:34 am »
Tooled and smoothed.  I'd love to have one of these beauts in my collection, but untouched please.


Offline Pscipio

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #198 on: May 03, 2011, 05:44:11 pm »
Admittedly a small picture, but that Trajan doesn't look tooled to me. What makes you sure it is?

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Ghengis_Jon

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Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #199 on: May 04, 2011, 07:45:30 am »
As specifically advertised by the seller.  Unless stunningly blatant, I would never offer up a coin here as tooled without such a seller pronouncement.  In this case, I would agree with the seller.

Looks to me like the right obverse field and just left of the mintmark on the reverse have been smoothed.  I don't see anything wrong with the bust of Trajan but the inconsistant wear and abrupt detail changes on the reverse raise enough of an eyebrow to warrant magnification.  That patina sure looks a lot like Jax.

 

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