Badly Tooled Coins Here

[ancientdave]

The hair and the drapery showing through Concordias legs seem tooled, they don't look like that on any of the examples I compared with. The seller is known for some cases of repaired gold coins a while back, just FYI.

This is exactly what I see as well. Dissapointing.

[Kained but Able]

The seller is known for some cases of repaired gold coins a while back, just FYI.

This type of background information should be collected somewhere for buyers to reference. Just knowing whether someone sells outright fakes dioesn't seem to be enough, there are seemingly many other misdemeanours that sellers get away with

[Ghengis Jon]

Yikes!

[Tacitus]

That hair would be bad in real life!

[Ghengis Jon]

This hemilitron was listed as 'heavily tooled'.

[Tacitus]

When is a heavily tooled coin no longer worth anything?
Is there a line that someone can cross from tooling to creating?

[commodus]

When is a heavily tooled coin no longer worth anything?
Is there a line that someone can cross from tooling to creating?

Yes, but as Justice Potter Stewart of the U.S. Supreme Court once said of pornography: "it is difficult to define, but I know it when I see it."

[Robert_Brenchley]

Exactly. If the coin's rare, I could live with a little tooling, as long as it wasn't too blatant. But you can't count up the area worked on and calculate it that way, any more than you can define pornography on the basis on the number of square inches of flesh on display.

[Aarmale]

How about this one:

It seems the whole bottom half of this coin is tooled, and more.

[Lloyd]

This is a very badly/dangerously tooled coin.  Bad in the sense of dangerous for numismatic study.  The tooling has created a mint control that does not exist in the emissions of the Baktrian Uncertain Mint C and if accepted blindly this would confuse, if not rewrite the history of Euthydemid mint operations in Baktria.

This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  To their credit CNG has identified quite explicitly in the description the tooling problem and the monogram issue:


BAKTRIA, Greco-Baktrian Kingdom. Euthydemos I. Circa 225-200 BC. AR Tetradrachm (27mm, 16.14 g, 6h). Uncertain Mint C. Struck circa 215-210 BC. Diademed head right / Herakles seated left on rock, holding club set on rocks beside his knee; monogram to outer right. Kritt C2; Bopearachchi Série 4A; SNG ANS 122. Good VF, some porosity, smoothing and tooling, with the monogram being incorrectly re-engraved.

This one is now for sale on [REMOVED BY ADMIN] at twice the price without reference to the tooling and completely incorrect monogram that results from the tooling.... see the potential to re-write history and/or screw numismatic research through the incomplete disclosure and actions of less than scrupulous reputable dealers?

As I said originally This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  

It saddens me that some dealers play to this sort of deception.

[benito]

This is a very badly/dangerously tooled coin.  Bad in the sense of dangerous for numismatic study.  The tooling has created a mint control that does not exist in the emissions of the Baktrian Uncertain Mint C and if accepted blindly this would confuse, if not rewrite the history of Euthydemid mint operations in Baktria.

This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  To their credit CNG has identified quite explicitly in the description the tooling problem and the monogram issue:


BAKTRIA, Greco-Baktrian Kingdom. Euthydemos I. Circa 225-200 BC. AR Tetradrachm (27mm, 16.14 g, 6h). Uncertain Mint C. Struck circa 215-210 BC. Diademed head right / Herakles seated left on rock, holding club set on rocks beside his knee; monogram to outer right. Kritt C2; Bopearachchi Série 4A; SNG ANS 122. Good VF, some porosity, smoothing and tooling, with the monogram being incorrectly re-engraved.

This one is now for sale on [REMOVED BY ADMIN] at twice the price without reference to the tooling and completely incorrect monogram that results from the tooling.... see the potential to re-write history and/or screw numismatic research through the incomplete disclosure and actions of less than scrupulous reputable dealers?

As I said originally This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  

It saddens me that some dealers play to this sort of deception.

NOT exactly twice the price ,but almost. Taking into consideration the hammer price and buyers
premium its a circa 95 % mark up. Thats up to the seller .Not mentioning the tooling and other problems is another thing.

[Lloyd]

Of course it would be worth a lot more if the PK monogram were genuine.... because as a unique specimen of such it would re-write numismatic history! So is the non-disclosure of the falsely tooled monogram an omission of ignorance, or of design? I'll let you be the judge, but I am pretty certain of which is the case.

[Ghengis Jon]

Shave and a haircut - 2 bits!

[Lloyd]

Shave and a haircut - 2 bits!

  .... at least this one has a bit of rough charm to it (at least in my opinion).... I have received far worse haircuts and beard trims over the years and only wish I looked as ruggedly good after them.

[cmcdon0923]

Reminds me somewhat of a hobo nickel portrait......

[Ghengis Jon]

Offered as "minimally tooled".

[Mark Z]

I've noted this seller in the past and I have the feeling that I do not want to buy from him.

mz

[Ghengis Jon]

Ya think there's been any tooling around the legends?

[Minos]

A worthy coin in an unworthy condition

[Galaxy]

Ghengis Jon, this Antoninus Pius coin is untouched

[Ghengis Jon]

Seller reports (on the Andy Pius) "...with evidence of tooling around the legends..."

[Galaxy]

He is probably mistaken, these sorts of depressions around the legend letters of large bronzes is not an uncommon phenomenon, this coin does not look tooled at all.

[Joe Sermarini]

As Galaxy notes, depressions around the legend do not necessarily mean tooling.  Depressions can result from the flow of metal filling the dies.  I am not entirely sure of the physics but it does happen.  Also, reengraved/repaired dies sometimes result in similar looking depressions. There may be tooling on that coin, or perhaps not.     

[Dk0311USMC]

Here is the most tooled coin I have. 

AS of Antoninus Pius.

[Ghengis Jon]

Tooled and smoothed.  I'd love to have one of these beauts in my collection, but untouched please.