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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Forum (Moderator: goldenancients)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 58678 times)
ancientdave
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« Reply #225 on: March 16, 2011, 06:00:22 pm »

The hair and the drapery showing through Concordias legs seem tooled, they don't look like that on any of the examples I compared with. The seller is known for some cases of repaired gold coins a while back, just FYI.

This is exactly what I see as well. Dissapointing.
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Kained but Able
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« Reply #226 on: March 17, 2011, 06:33:14 am »

The seller is known for some cases of repaired gold coins a while back, just FYI.

This type of background information should be collected somewhere for buyers to reference. Just knowing whether someone sells outright fakes dioesn't seem to be enough, there are seemingly many other misdemeanours that sellers get away with
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #227 on: March 18, 2011, 11:35:56 am »

Yikes!
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Tacitus
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« Reply #228 on: March 19, 2011, 02:47:33 pm »

That hair would be bad in real life!
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #229 on: March 22, 2011, 05:30:31 am »

This hemilitron was listed as 'heavily tooled'.
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Tacitus
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« Reply #230 on: March 22, 2011, 08:08:41 pm »

When is a heavily tooled coin no longer worth anything?
Is there a line that someone can cross from tooling to creating?
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commodus
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« Reply #231 on: March 22, 2011, 09:13:56 pm »

Quote from: Tacitus on March 22, 2011, 08:08:41 pm
When is a heavily tooled coin no longer worth anything?
Is there a line that someone can cross from tooling to creating?

Yes, but as Justice Potter Stewart of the U.S. Supreme Court once said of pornography: "it is difficult to define, but I know it when I see it."
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Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
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« Reply #232 on: March 24, 2011, 03:45:05 pm »

Exactly. If the coin's rare, I could live with a little tooling, as long as it wasn't too blatant. But you can't count up the area worked on and calculate it that way, any more than you can define pornography on the basis on the number of square inches of flesh on display.
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« Reply #233 on: March 24, 2011, 07:30:08 pm »

How about this one:

It seems the whole bottom half of this coin is tooled, and more.
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« Reply #234 on: March 25, 2011, 04:45:05 am »

This is a very badly/dangerously tooled coin.  Bad in the sense of dangerous for numismatic study.  The tooling has created a mint control that does not exist in the emissions of the Baktrian Uncertain Mint C and if accepted blindly this would confuse, if not rewrite the history of Euthydemid mint operations in Baktria.

This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  To their credit CNG has identified quite explicitly in the description the tooling problem and the monogram issue:


BAKTRIA, Greco-Baktrian Kingdom. Euthydemos I. Circa 225-200 BC. AR Tetradrachm (27mm, 16.14 g, 6h). Uncertain Mint C. Struck circa 215-210 BC. Diademed head right / Herakles seated left on rock, holding club set on rocks beside his knee; monogram to outer right. Kritt C2; Bopearachchi Série 4A; SNG ANS 122. Good VF, some porosity, smoothing and tooling, with the monogram being incorrectly re-engraved.

This one is now for sale on [REMOVED BY ADMIN] at twice the price without reference to the tooling and completely incorrect monogram that results from the tooling.... see the potential to re-write history and/or screw numismatic research through the incomplete disclosure and actions of less than scrupulous reputable dealers?

As I said originally This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  

It saddens me that some dealers play to this sort of deception.
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benito
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« Reply #235 on: March 25, 2011, 05:40:56 am »

This is a very badly/dangerously tooled coin.  Bad in the sense of dangerous for numismatic study.  The tooling has created a mint control that does not exist in the emissions of the Baktrian Uncertain Mint C and if accepted blindly this would confuse, if not rewrite the history of Euthydemid mint operations in Baktria.

This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  To their credit CNG has identified quite explicitly in the description the tooling problem and the monogram issue:


BAKTRIA, Greco-Baktrian Kingdom. Euthydemos I. Circa 225-200 BC. AR Tetradrachm (27mm, 16.14 g, 6h). Uncertain Mint C. Struck circa 215-210 BC. Diademed head right / Herakles seated left on rock, holding club set on rocks beside his knee; monogram to outer right. Kritt C2; Bopearachchi Série 4A; SNG ANS 122. Good VF, some porosity, smoothing and tooling, with the monogram being incorrectly re-engraved.

This one is now for sale on [REMOVED BY ADMIN] at twice the price without reference to the tooling and completely incorrect monogram that results from the tooling.... see the potential to re-write history and/or screw numismatic research through the incomplete disclosure and actions of less than scrupulous reputable dealers?

As I said originally This shows that tooling has the potential to re-write our sense of history and is not simply an issue of aesthetics.  

It saddens me that some dealers play to this sort of deception.

NOT exactly twice the price ,but almost. Taking into consideration the hammer price and buyers
premium its a circa 95 % mark up. Thats up to the seller .Not mentioning the tooling and other problems is another thing.
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #236 on: March 25, 2011, 06:07:49 am »

Of course it would be worth a lot more if the PK monogram were genuine.... because as a unique specimen of such it would re-write numismatic history! So is the non-disclosure of the falsely tooled monogram an omission of ignorance, or of design? I'll let you be the judge, but I am pretty certain of which is the case.
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #237 on: March 30, 2011, 05:16:55 am »

Shave and a haircut - 2 bits!

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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #238 on: March 30, 2011, 09:21:34 pm »

Shave and a haircut - 2 bits!

 Grin .... at least this one has a bit of rough charm to it (at least in my opinion).... I have received far worse haircuts and beard trims over the years and only wish I looked as ruggedly good after them.
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cmcdon0923
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« Reply #239 on: March 30, 2011, 10:13:51 pm »

Reminds me somewhat of a hobo nickel portrait......
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #240 on: April 13, 2011, 12:21:25 pm »

Offered as "minimally tooled".
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Mark Z
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« Reply #241 on: April 13, 2011, 01:07:31 pm »

I've noted this seller in the past and I have the feeling that I do not want to buy from him.

mz
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #242 on: April 18, 2011, 05:14:28 am »

Ya think there's been any tooling around the legends?

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Minos
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« Reply #243 on: April 18, 2011, 05:41:53 am »

A worthy coin in an unworthy condition azn
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Galaxy
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« Reply #244 on: April 18, 2011, 07:37:04 am »

Ghengis Jon, this Antoninus Pius coin is untouched
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #245 on: April 18, 2011, 12:25:46 pm »

Seller reports (on the Andy Pius) "...with evidence of tooling around the legends..."
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Galaxy
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« Reply #246 on: April 18, 2011, 12:28:29 pm »

He is probably mistaken, these sorts of depressions around the legend letters of large bronzes is not an uncommon phenomenon, this coin does not look tooled at all.
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Joe Sermarini
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« Reply #247 on: April 19, 2011, 08:54:28 am »

As Galaxy notes, depressions around the legend do not necessarily mean tooling.  Depressions can result from the flow of metal filling the dies.  I am not entirely sure of the physics but it does happen.  Also, reengraved/repaired dies sometimes result in similar looking depressions. There may be tooling on that coin, or perhaps not.     
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Joseph Sermarini
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« Reply #248 on: April 27, 2011, 08:34:35 pm »

Here is the most tooled coin I have. 

AS of Antoninus Pius.
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #249 on: May 03, 2011, 05:40:34 am »

Tooled and smoothed.  I'd love to have one of these beauts in my collection, but untouched please.

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