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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 111405 times)
Lee S
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« Reply #550 on: January 29, 2016, 09:58:25 am »

But there is a world of difference between a tooled ( and even smoothed ) coin, and an overcleaned coin that has been repatinated / retoned...
    I have in my collection several coins that I have treated for BD, ( and a few that I overcleaned, and even one or two I used electrolysis on as a method of last resort... Roll Eyes   ) which had no patina remaining... I have used chemicals to give these coins a more attractive look, but I have not altered or added anything to the original detail of the coin, which I feel is the most important point to consider here.
    I have also cleaned a few coins which had a very thick ( usually green...) patina where I have selectively thinned the patina in the relevant places ( around eyes, lettering etc.) to make the coin as attractive as possible, and I have, to be honest felt a little guilty about the process, even though the results ended up as a much "better" coin.
  In my gallery I usually mention if a coin has been stripped and repatinated, and I would always do so if I was selling a coin, out of honesty and common decency...
   However, IMHO, these practices I have used on my own and the occasional friends coins are a million miles away from removing metal from a coin and then passing it on as original.... Or even as "lightly smoothed" , " lightly tooled" or whatever.... Once you intentionally remove metal you are fundamentally altering the coin, and it will never again be original.
   Just my broad English penny's worth !!
 Have a great weekend guys!

Lee.
 
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otlichnik
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« Reply #551 on: January 30, 2016, 03:09:01 pm »

I think that you noted the key issue Lee.  Transparency and honesty.

People want to buy a tooled coin, fine.  A re-patinated one, fine.  If all were labelled honestly as such then it would be fine from a consumer's point of view.  Buy what you want, use your own judgement re price variation.

That said, Andrew's question is interesting.  Let's say that there are two Andrew McCabe's in parallel universes.  Andrew alpha lists everything he thinks might have been done to a coin - tooling, smoothing, over-cleaning, re-patination, etc.  Andrew beta simply lists the coins.  What is the difference in prices realized?

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« Reply #552 on: January 30, 2016, 10:32:24 pm »

I think that you noted the key issue Lee.  Transparency and honesty.

People want to buy a tooled coin, fine.  A re-patinated one, fine.  If all were labelled honestly as such then it would be fine from a consumer's point of view.  Buy what you want, use your own judgement re price variation.

That said, Andrew's question is interesting.  Let's say that there are two Andrew McCabe's in parallel universes.  Andrew alpha lists everything he thinks might have been done to a coin - tooling, smoothing, over-cleaning, re-patination, etc.  Andrew beta simply lists the coins.  What is the difference in prices realized?

Shawn


I'm not sure this Andrew alpha actually reflects me, so I wanted to pull back on expectations. I do NOT list everything that might have happened to a coin. Here is among the defects I would not list

1. Where a coin's surface looks like a moonscape, and the photo shows that clearly, there's nothing to say. Likewise if there's a piece missing from the edge, a big hole, or anything else my 10 year old daughter could point out to me.

2. Where a coin has been inexpertly cleaned resulting in obvious damage to surfaces, and the photo shows that clearly, likewise. This includes cleaning that has attempted to highlight the design and kinda botched it up, cut up the surfaces, removes some patina but not in a pretty way. What can one say? "Ugly coin"? That's for the buyer to assess. (but in contrast if it's the type of cleaning that caused fine surface scratches that are not plainly visible, especially to silver, then that absolutely should be mentioned).

3. Where a coin has been smoothly cleaned to a gloss finish like one smooths a jewel, with a buffed patina. That's how nice bronzes were generally cleaned in olden times, rubbed, and one can for example easily see an old patina aes grave with such surfaces that a modern cleaner wouldn't do. This was a matter of taste and practice. Modern repatination falls into the same bucket. I don't like the latter but many people consider it acceptable.

4. Where a major auction house (NAC, CNG) has already mentioned an interference with a given coin, and I'm reselling it, I'll generally use exactly the same wording, if it was reasonable at the time.

5. I don't grade my own coins for sale, my vendor (Roma) does. The buck stops with me saying to Richard "please mention such and such an issue", and he'll then use his conventional term. "May have been mounted"; "coin appears to be plated" for example.

Buyers have a duty to examine photos and buy on the basis of the photo and any descriptive modifiers. Caveat emptor.

Sellers / consignors duty is to point out issues that may not be obvious from a photo such as a deliberately recut (strengthened) design, i.e. tooling, or where parts of a coins surface has been selectively smoothed with some metal removal in a way such as to highlight the areas that have not been smoothed, or where there has been a repair or a plugged hole or a mended break and such like, or fine surface damage to silver due to abrasive cleaning. Such less visible enhancements that materially affect a coin should be mentioned.

But, with these exceptions excluded, it's otherwise caveat emptor. Know the seller, know your coins, and buy per the photo and description. A well taken photo is in itself transparency. It's only what's not obvious from a photo that really needs explanation.
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« Reply #553 on: April 11, 2016, 09:29:57 am »

Ugly tooled lycian stater coming up for sale   Roll Eyes Shocked Grin
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« Reply #554 on: April 15, 2016, 11:39:12 am »

Hadrian
already 17 bid and 123 euro it will go up further
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Eric
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Herakles cheated!


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« Reply #555 on: May 11, 2016, 07:53:03 am »

Surprised to find this one on a prominent dealer's site (I informed him of the oversight).  Allegedly unpublished.  Some think the coin is an outright fake.  One thing is for sure, this one has been badly tooled.
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Herakles cheated!


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« Reply #556 on: May 18, 2016, 06:13:56 am »

This one is really upsetting, especially since I need the type and would have paid a few hundred for even a really worn specimen.  Now it is utterly worthless.  In fact, it is worse than that, it has negative value.  One's collection becomes worse by containing this coin.

Acheloios will have his revenge. Just look at Sophocles' Trachiniae, in which we witness the excruciatingly painful death of Herakles, who got exactly what he deserved!:

Herakles: "Pallas, ah Pallas, it strikes me again! O child, I beseech you,
pity your father: draw forth your blameless sword from its scabbard:
strike off my head and end the distress..."

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« Reply #557 on: May 18, 2016, 03:34:27 pm »

on auction now at a renowned auction house, i think they missed it, other coin they write "Heavily smoothed"

Hadrian. AE Sestertius (22.80 g), AD 117-138 VF. Rome, ca. AD 120-122. IMP CAESAR TRAIANVS HADR-IANVS AVG P M TR P COS III, laureate bust of Hadrian right, slight drapery on far shoulder. Reverse: MONETA AVGVSTI, S C across field, Moneta standing facing, head left, holding scales and cornucopiae. RIC 586b. Glossy dark green and brown patina. Very Fine
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Eric
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« Reply #558 on: May 24, 2016, 05:32:57 pm »

Bronze nach 241 v. Chr. Sizilien VF

Price:   500,00 EUR

Sizilien Bronze nach 241 v. Chr.
Grade: VF Abbreviations
Catalog: Calciati I, S. 384, Em. 7
Bronze nach 241 v. Chr. 8.46 g. Kopf des Herakles / Triskeles mit geflügeltem Medusenhaupt. Calciati I, S. 384, Em. 7 Selten Sehr schön
Sizilien

.......................................................

No comment.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10310302t

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85998663
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« Reply #559 on: May 25, 2016, 12:54:03 am »

Sestertius Hadrian 117-138 A.D.

The coin is authentic and it dates from the reign of the ruler represented in it.

Material: Bronze

Diameter: 31-33 mm

Weight  : 25,2 g
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Eric
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areich
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« Reply #560 on: May 25, 2016, 01:56:16 am »

It makes you physically sick to look at it.
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« Reply #561 on: September 18, 2016, 11:53:02 pm »

on Auction


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Eric
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paparoupa
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« Reply #562 on: September 20, 2016, 02:56:03 am »

In a German auction, maroneia stater, it would have been a cute coin if the vandals didn't re-engrave the grapes and tried to smooth out the corrosion
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« Reply #563 on: September 26, 2016, 01:17:14 am »

Kyzikos stater (ex-prospero)

poor boy visited the hairdresser against his will  Shocked Roll Eyes
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Zenon M
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« Reply #564 on: September 28, 2016, 12:01:43 pm »

Constantius Gallus: an unworthy caesar but a handsome man...
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« Reply #565 on: October 19, 2016, 04:33:20 pm »

On a well-known selling platform. The lion's face and mane are a modern masterpiece.
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« Reply #566 on: November 10, 2016, 02:56:16 pm »

uglier 
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« Reply #567 on: December 20, 2016, 05:28:55 am »

 Angry
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Eric
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« Reply #568 on: December 21, 2016, 03:27:48 pm »

noted as tooled in auction.
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« Reply #569 on: December 21, 2016, 03:40:14 pm »

same auction, only noted smoothed seems also tooled
Obv.
drapery
Rev.
Toga
Head Hadrian?
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Eric
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« Reply #570 on: December 27, 2016, 02:00:28 pm »

ebay under smoothed
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« Reply #571 on: February 07, 2017, 02:03:01 am »

maybe Graffiti "smile" so in ancient times
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« Reply #572 on: March 02, 2017, 11:39:15 am »

The ugliest tooled Justinian follis.
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« Reply #573 on: March 02, 2017, 11:50:18 am »

Face doesn't look tooled to me.

An ancient imitation ("barbarous")?
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« Reply #574 on: March 02, 2017, 12:20:10 pm »

Yes Curtis, this is an ancient imitation, but also tooled on the face.
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here « previous next »
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