Classical Numismatics Discussion
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 109162 times)
Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #475 on: October 27, 2013, 01:49:07 am »


I said in the decription by the auction house the tooling is mentioned. This defect is catered by the small price. I am not defending the auction house, they have an obvious slavey fake I already posted, and molinari posted another bronze italian fake. And I suspect other ones as well. As I said it is obvious these 200 coins are coming from the collection of sb that passed and possibly bought these are authentics, and the auction house put everything on auction.

To which I say so what?  

The fact that tooling is mentioned is irrelevant to the fact that it is a badly tooled coin which is the subject of the thread.  

The fact that the tooling is mentiond in the description doesn't alter the fact that the coin is misattributed, nor does it in anyway remove the responsibility for both correct attribution and mention that the tooling has created a totally false mint control when the coin is correctly attributed.

The fact that it is accompanied by other crap material doesn't alter in any way that it is a badly tooled, deceptive coin and thus worthy of posting in the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here. More worthy of the title badly tooled than most of the coins posted previously, by virtue of the complete falsification of the mint control resultant from tooling.

Does the fact (if it is as you hypothesize) that this is part of someone's collection being sold lessen the responsibility for this badly tooled coin, or in some way make it less badly tooled? I think not! On your logic it appears that any crap that finds its way into an auction from someone's collection is turned into something acceptable and that this "provenance" removes the auction house of any responsibility for authentication, accurate description and attribution. On the contrary in my humble opinion, but you may differ, as is you prerogative. In any event this aspect was not the subject of my original post, but rather irrelevant "smoke" that you have sought to blow over the subject of why and how this is a badly tooled coin.

I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it.

So where is the "big deal" in posting this badly tooled coin with an explanation of what is wrong with it?
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« Reply #476 on: October 27, 2013, 04:24:19 am »


So where is the "big deal" in posting this badly tooled coin with an explanation of what is wrong with it?

Lloyd you made several comments on how reputable is the spanish auction house and how ignorant they are and so on. I said they are small players in the field usually selling inexpensive ancient greek lots and out of coincidence a serious collection ended up with them. You commented on the vendor, you could have discussed the coin only as you propose we should be all be doing. On the occassion of the Rhodes coins where indeed reputable and knowledgable dealers were involved, the thread was closed in a hurry, nobody cared about the "suckers" that got the fake coins, and I was instructed to not inform the forum about the answers of the vendors.
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« Reply #477 on: October 27, 2013, 04:36:52 am »

I've always been a vigorous opponent of tooling, because it deceives collectors and destroys real ancient coins, and an even more vigorous opponent of undisclosed or lame excuses for tooling ("lightly smoothed" being the phrase I hate most of all, weasel words that say nothing straight but act as some sort of cloak for a dishonest seller). This thread is a place to complain about and highlight tooled coins, and to complain about the nature of deceptive sales practices relating to tooled coins and to give fair warning to collectors. This coin rightly belongs in this thread, and all credit to Lloyd for pointing out and explaining its terrible defects. I think it's also right to note a rare instance of a seller actually describing a coin as tooled, hence giving a warning when disposing of a very bad coin. If only more did so...
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« Reply #478 on: October 27, 2013, 04:48:57 am »

Price is not relevant when discussing a fake or tooled coin.  A low price does not make it less fake or less tooled.

Being correctly identified as fake or tooled coin in the sellers description is relevant only in that it provides evidence the coin is fake or tooled.

Seller's description or attribution errors are not important here.  This board is about coins not sellers.  We should NOT insult vendors here, even if they are anonymous, unless we are nominating them for the Notorious Fake Seller List.  

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Joseph Sermarini
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« Reply #479 on: October 27, 2013, 05:28:45 pm »

From the same source as the diotos one above, marked as tooled
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« Reply #480 on: October 27, 2013, 05:30:03 pm »

And another one
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« Reply #481 on: October 27, 2013, 05:50:47 pm »

And another one

I don't see where this one is tooled.
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« Reply #482 on: October 28, 2013, 12:56:00 am »

And another one

I don't see where this one is tooled.

The tooling is declared in this auction. From the ex-venue:"Gestalt der Sosipolis auf dem Revers überarbeitet"
Apart from Sosipolis' head that is declared as tooled, I believe that the horses' tails are also tooled.
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« Reply #483 on: October 30, 2013, 04:45:48 am »

From the usual german ebay shop
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« Reply #484 on: November 08, 2013, 04:38:23 am »

Just saw this horribly tooled tetradrachm on fleabay from the usual toolie dealer.
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« Reply #485 on: November 08, 2013, 10:20:43 am »

That is a horrow show  Shocked
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Taras
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« Reply #486 on: December 02, 2013, 01:55:31 pm »

From the same German ebay store.
An amazing incuse alien-bull  Shocked
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« Reply #487 on: December 24, 2013, 06:03:45 am »

Poor Tanit  Roll Eyes
This re-engraved monstrosity appears in a french platform shop. I don't plan to contact them, I give up....
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« Reply #488 on: December 29, 2013, 08:29:19 am »

From an online german auction. The hair is tooled. The provenance given (NAC 4/ 1401 1991) is erroneous.
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« Reply #489 on: December 29, 2013, 01:08:50 pm »

The last two...I just don't see the tooling. I suppose I would see it if it was side-by-side with another coin from the same dies, but it isn't jumping out at me. Maybe with the less obvious coins you can post untooled coins to compare?
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« Reply #490 on: December 29, 2013, 03:52:57 pm »

The last two...I just don't see the tooling. I suppose I would see it if it was side-by-side with another coin from the same dies, but it isn't jumping out at me. Maybe with the less obvious coins you can post untooled coins to compare?

Given the overall condition of the carthage stater and the chalkis drachm, there is no way high points such as the hair can have such detail. Especially for Tanit, I have never seen a Group V or Group VI with such hairlines.
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« Reply #491 on: December 30, 2013, 02:46:51 am »

I agree that the Carthage Stater is probably tooled, whereas from the picture I am undecided about the Chalkis coin. Its hairlines do look like what you would expect from tooling but then again, they also do not stand out as completely unnatural for this issue either.

Lars
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« Reply #492 on: December 30, 2013, 06:29:07 am »

I agree that the Carthage Stater is probably tooled, whereas from the picture I am undecided about the Chalkis coin. Its hairlines do look like what you would expect from tooling but then again, they also do not stand out as completely unnatural for this issue either.

Lars

Letting aside the possibility that the Chalkis drachm is tooled, I consider it unbelievable that this coin hammered 6 times its estimate, with an obviously erroneous NAC provenance. European auctions are getting insane, I wonder who and why is paying all these money to get non-exceptional coins that would be really cheap 10-15 years ago.
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« Reply #493 on: December 30, 2013, 06:42:03 am »

The apparently tooled Tanit appears to be debased gold (electrum?) and the comparison coin appears to be of good gold. That makes it difficult to compare them. Near 24k gold certainly would not hold up those finer details with any wear. I believe that the French dealer is quite accurate in attribution, grading, authentication and descriptions. Nobody is perfect but they generally impress me which is primarily why I am still not entirely convinced it is tooled.

The Chalkis comparison coin is flatly struck with slightly worn dies. That makes it difficult to compare them. The sharpness of the detail on the apparently tooled coin does seem impossible and probably is impossible, but I am still not entirely sure.
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Joseph Sermarini
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« Reply #494 on: December 30, 2013, 07:07:12 am »

The apparently tooled Tanit appears to be debased gold (electrum?) and the comparison coin appears to be of good gold. That makes it difficult to compare them. Near 24k gold certainly would not hold up those finer details with any wear. I believe that the French dealer is quite accurate in attribution, grading, authentication and descriptions. Nobody is perfect but they generally impress me which is primarily why I am still not entirely convinced it is tooled.

The Chalkis comparison coin is flatly struck with slightly worn dies. That makes it difficult to compare them. The sharpness of the detail on the apparently tooled coin does seem impossible and probably is impossible, but I am still not entirely sure.

Hmm, the photo is showing a deep yellow colour that is an effect of photography. Group VI is electrum with very low gold content 45-55% if I remember by heart. I attach a photo of the best example I have seen around, you can see that the hair of the french example has been re-engraved. The French dealer is quite good and I was surprised this slipped through their attention.
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« Reply #495 on: January 02, 2014, 11:56:38 pm »

Recently sold on ebay. I was admiring the beautiful patina on this dupondius but as I looked closer it appeared tooled to me. I have very little experience in this area, only what I have read and learned here on Forvm. Opinions appreciated.

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« Reply #496 on: January 03, 2014, 12:30:05 am »

Hi this is not a sestertius it is dupondius
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« Reply #497 on: January 03, 2014, 12:32:08 am »

I dont think the coin was tooled .I think in some point the patina wast striped .
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« Reply #498 on: January 03, 2014, 04:21:11 am »

I see cleaning scratches but no tooling.
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« Reply #499 on: February 21, 2014, 12:07:26 pm »

Philistis' veil got some extra folds Shocked
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here « previous next »
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