Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Please look at the RECENT ADDITIONS and PRICE REDUCTIONS at the top and bottom of the page. All items are guaranteed authentic for eternity! Thanks for supporting Forum with your PURCHASES! Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Point your mouse to a coin in RECENT ADDITIONS or PRICE REDUCTIONS on this page to see the the price. All items are guaranteed authentic for eternity! Thanks for supporting Forum with your PURCHASES!


FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 14 15 16 17 18 [19] 20 21 22 23 24 25 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 112532 times)
areich
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8802



WWW
« Reply #450 on: September 26, 2013, 04:09:17 pm »

Perhaps these are the unsolds from their previous auction of tooled crap a few years ago? Either they don't know or don't care, whichever it is, I no longer buy from them.
Logged

Meepzorp
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3589



WWW
« Reply #451 on: September 26, 2013, 06:42:43 pm »

Hi folks,

This thread is scaring me. In looking at pages 20 and 21, I recognize only 30-40% of these coins as being tooled and/or fakes. About 60-70% of these coins would have fooled me. In the post that Taras made at the end of page 20 (with the 9 photos), I recognized only one (the Gela one) as being tooled/fake. The other 8 would have fooled me. The coin in the photo in Nick's post at the beginning of page 21 also would have fooled me, as would the "fake patina" RR coin in Andrew's post on page 20.

And I've been collecting ancient coins (especially Magna Graecia) since 1998. Am I not seeing something?

Meepzorp
Logged

ecoli
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1134


Every coin is sacred, every coin is great.


« Reply #452 on: September 26, 2013, 08:59:40 pm »

A lot of it has to do with thinking about wear patterns.

If details are fresh on a generally old worn flan, chances are
the details were helped.


Logged

Taras
Guest
« Reply #453 on: September 27, 2013, 04:02:43 am »

Those posts are intended to learn, not to scare.
Panic does not help to solve the problem.
The only way to spot fakes and tooled coins is to train your eyes, reading books, and when your eyes are not still well trained, making "networking" with scholars and collectors.

Bye
Nico
Logged
Molinari
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4037


Herakles cheated!


WWW
« Reply #454 on: September 27, 2013, 05:06:50 am »

Quote from: Meepzorp on September 26, 2013, 06:42:43 pm
Hi folks,

This thread is scaring me. In looking at pages 20 and 21, I recognize only 30-40% of these coins as being tooled and/or fakes. About 60-70% of these coins would have fooled me. In the post that Taras made at the end of page 20 (with the 9 photos), I recognized only one (the Gela one) as being tooled/fake. The other 8 would have fooled me. The coin in the photo in Nick's post at the beginning of page 21 also would have fooled me, as would the "fake patina" RR coin in Andrew's post on page 20.

And I've been collecting ancient coins (especially Magna Graecia) since 1998. Am I not seeing something?

Meepzorp

I'm not certain the Agyrion coin is tooled either, but the inscription looks strange, which is why I asked the auction house and ultimately decided not to bid. 
Logged

otlichnik
Tribunus Plebis 2016
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4079



« Reply #455 on: September 27, 2013, 02:21:39 pm »

Ecoli's comment about wear is one of the main clues that trigger my suspicions.  The higher surfaces of coins wear more.  It is a simple and logical rule but is one that many toolers break especially when they altar hair and drapery.

It is one advantage of having a low end collection.  I have a few hundred large bronzes of the mid-1st to mid-3rd c, mostly sestertii but some dupondii and asses.  While I like my little collection I recognize that they are not high end coins.  What they are though is worn and as a result I know what worn large bronzes look like. 

Shawn
Logged

SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)
Lloyd Taylor
Guest
« Reply #456 on: October 09, 2013, 08:35:54 pm »

Oh my beard! And what happened to my hair? Why is my nose so pointy?!

Described as such for those who did not notice at first glance....


SELEUKID KINGS of SYRIA. Seleukos I Nikator. 312-281 BC. AR Tetradrachm (26mm, 17.07 g, 10h). Seleukeia II mint. Struck circa 296/5-281 BC. Laureate head of Zeus right / Athena in quadriga of horned elephants right, brandishing spear and shield; anchor above, ΔΝ in exergue. SC 130.11; HGC 9, 18a. VF, toned, obverse tooled.

I dare say its from the same tooler's hand as the one I posted earlier in the thread - easily recognized handiwork in the tooled beard and hair style. A shame really and arguably not reflected in the hefty estimate! I guess that fools and their money are always waiting to be separated.
Logged
paparoupa
Parasitica Cliens
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 315


« Reply #457 on: October 10, 2013, 07:13:19 am »

Some weeks ago I posted a Starr Group V tetradrachm from the same auction but my post was deleted
Logged

Lloyd Taylor
Guest
« Reply #458 on: October 25, 2013, 12:07:37 am »

Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.

A coin of Diodotos II of Baktria bearing the posthumous image of his father Diodotos I. Heavily tooled, but the obverse portrait style is distinctve of the issues that constitute Holt's Group B1-B3 all bearing the idealised posthumous image of Diodotos I.  

So far so good, tooling aside.

However, turn to the reverse and we find a crudely approximated mint control (the pitchfork symbol) that never occurrred on the coinage in the name of Diodotos. Its only to be found (in much more refined form with some additional detail missing from the tooled item) on the much earlier coinage in the name of Antiochos issued by Diodotos I at the time he was nominally the Seleucid Satrap of Baktria. The only controls on the coins bearing the posthumous portrait of Diodotos I (Holt Groups B1-B1) are a wreath, or a crescent or none at all.  In all liklhood this coin pre-tooling was an example of the last noted type - no control!

Some poor sod will potentially buy this piece of maliciously tooled junk and believe he has a unique and unrecorded coin!

Equally egregious is the vendor's description of it as a coin of Diodotos I. Diodotos I never issued coins in the name of Diodotos; all were in the name of his nominal suzerain, Antiochos. It fell to his son, Diodotos II, to proclaim complete independence on coinage in the name of Diodotos.  

Clearly the vendor, despite reputation, has little knowledge of that which he is authenticating and attributing!
Logged
Taras
Guest
« Reply #459 on: October 25, 2013, 12:14:12 am »

Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.

A coin of Diodotos II of Baktria bearing the posthumous image of his father Diodotos I. Heavily tooled, but the obverse portrait style is distinctve of the issues that constitute Holt's Group B1-B3 all bearing the idealised posthumous image of Diodotos I.  

So far so good, tooling aside.

However, turn to the reverse and we find a crudely approximated mint control (the pitchfork symbol) that never occurrred on the coinage in the name of Diodotos. Its only to be found (in much more refined form with some additional detail missing from the tooled item) on the much earlier coinage in the name of Antiochos issued by Diodotos I at the time he was nominally the Seleucid Satrap of Baktria. The only controls on the coins bearing the posthumous portrait of Diodotos I (Holt Groups B1-B1) are a wreath, or a crescent or none at all.  

Some poor sod will potentially buy this piece of maliciously tooled junk and believe he has a unique and unrecorded coin!

In cases like this I wonder where tooling ends and forgery begins.
Logged
Lloyd Taylor
Guest
« Reply #460 on: October 25, 2013, 12:21:23 am »

In cases like this I wonder where tooling ends and forgery begins.

Certainly its a blurred line. Call it what we will, tooling or forgery, the potentially adverse consequence of this sort of activity on the  understanding and interpretation of the numismatic record is profound.
Logged
paparoupa
Parasitica Cliens
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 315


« Reply #461 on: October 26, 2013, 12:01:45 pm »

Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.

Clearly the vendor, despite reputation, has little knowledge of that which he is authenticating and attributing!


I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4772



WWW
« Reply #462 on: October 26, 2013, 12:21:36 pm »

I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...

I agree with this sentiment. If a coin is described as tooled and is offered at a low price, you know exactly what you are bidding on. I've no problems with that, even if the tooling resulted in inadvertent changes - tooling by definition always causes changes to the coins design; when disclosed and priced, its no different from when a reputable dealer offers Cavinos or group lots of black cabinet reproductions.
Logged

Lloyd Taylor
Guest
« Reply #463 on: October 26, 2013, 11:32:16 pm »

I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...

I agree with this sentiment. If a coin is described as tooled and is offered at a low price, you know exactly what you are bidding on. I've no problems with that, even if the tooling resulted in inadvertent changes - tooling by definition always causes changes to the coins design; when disclosed and priced, its no different from when a reputable dealer offers Cavinos or group lots of black cabinet reproductions.

So tooling is only unacceptable if it is offered at a high price?  Huh  

The title of the tread is Badly Tooled Coins Here with no qualifiaction as to sale practices, or offered prices.

This coin is clearly badly tooled, to the point of being numismatically misleading to those unfamiliar with the type and it is misattributed. Cheap or not does not enter the consideration of what constitutes badly tooled. But of course for the apologists for inept and incompetent dealers this matters little, to the extent that it is equated with  being ...no different from when a reputable dealer offers Cavinos or group lots of black cabinet reproductions. That last statement is complete bollocks when you examine the facts about this Badly Tooled Coin, its misattribution and the circumstances under which it is offered, that have nothing to do with the starting price that is offered. And since when are fully attributed Cavinos or balck cabinet fakes the same as misattributed tooled coins?  Completely different things as far as I am concerned, and I suggest most would agree that there are no similarities between a reproduction, or balck cabinet fake and a badly tooled coin.

And a starting price is not an estimate and certainly not a price realized. Quite the opposite more often than not. In fact it is usual for the less than scrupulous to post a low starting price with no estimate as a hook to the suckers. But my issue was not with this approach, it never entered the discussion till someone blew this smoke, irrelevant to the consideration, over the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here.

Rather as I said:
Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record......
&
In cases like this I wonder where tooling ends and forgery begins.

Certainly its a blurred line. Call it what we will, tooling or forgery, the potentially adverse consequence of this sort of activity on the  understanding and interpretation of the numismatic record is profound.

So your point is what? That there are acceptable Badly Tooled Coins if they are offered at a cheap price, even if misattributed and bearing no comment on the extent of misleading reworking/addition of erroneous mint controls etc.? Sure no expert will be deceived, but then no expert will be interested in the crap.... the same can be said of any and every tooled coin! If thats your benchmark then all tooled coins are acceptable and pose no risk (to experts).

Your logic seems flawed, to say the least!

It is not experts that buy this sort of material and for such people it is far from clear-cut that ..... If a coin is described as tooled and is offered at a low price, you know exactly what you are bidding on.  In this specific case the inexpert bidder might think he had found a bargain unrecorded Diodotid coin type! Onto that hook you sucker!

But remember, I made no big deal of these aspects, in simply posting a Badly Tooled Coin Here and explaing why it was badly tooled and misattributed. The matter of price never came into this consideration in my original post, that smoke was blown over the subject by the apologist for an inept at best, misleading at worst, dealer who remained completely anonymous in my post.
Logged
Lloyd Taylor
Guest
« Reply #464 on: October 27, 2013, 12:08:08 am »

Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.

Clearly the vendor, despite reputation, has little knowledge of that which he is authenticating and attributing!


I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...

What has the offered price got to do with the consideration of a Badly Tooled Coin posted under the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here?

It is badly tooled and misattributed regardless of the price! Thus it warrants posting here. No big deal was made by me of the matter. Rather it was posted with the facts about it, as just another example of bad tooling (tongue in cheek I ask is there ever good tooling?) which constitutes little more than Numismatic Vandalism.

Are you suggesting that we should only consider tooled coins that are offered at a high price under the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here?

As far as I am concerned if someone reading this thread is made aware of the matter and the problems with this specific coin and then declines to bid on it because he/she understands what it really is, then all the better for it. Only when people stop buying tooled crap with tooling cease.
Logged
paparoupa
Parasitica Cliens
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 315


« Reply #465 on: October 27, 2013, 01:31:41 am »

Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.

Clearly the vendor, despite reputation, has little knowledge of that which he is authenticating and attributing!


I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...

What has the offered price got to do with the consideration of a Badly Tooled Coin posted under the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here?

It is badly tooled and misattributed regardless of the price! Thus it warrants posting here. No big deal was made by me of the matter. Rather it was posted with the facts about it, as just another example of bad tooling (tongue in cheek I ask is there ever good tooling?) which constitutes little more than Numismatic Vandalism.

Are you suggesting that we should only consider tooled coins that are offered at a high price under the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here?

As far as I am concerned if someone reading this thread is made aware of the matter and the problems with this specific coin and then declines to bid on it because he/she understands what it really is, then all the better for it. Only when people stop buying tooled crap with tooling cease.

I said in the decription by the auction house the tooling is mentioned. This defect is catered by the small price. I am not defending the auction house, they have an obvious slavey fake I already posted, and molinari posted another bronze italian fake. And I suspect other ones as well. As I said it is obvious these 200 coins are coming from the collection of sb that passed and possibly bought these as authentics, and the auction house put everything on auction.

You didn't name the auction house, but there are 3 spanish auction houses only...And why did you mention the provenance if you want to discuss the coin only?

I think there are many members including Joe that are a bit exaggerating with the "we discuss coins not dealers and prices" motto. The coins are not spawning as mushrooms in our gardens and as far as I know it is illegal if you go out in Greece with a metal detector.For each coin I have there was always a dealer and a price and sadly money set aside and saved to buy it.
Logged

Lloyd Taylor
Guest
« Reply #466 on: October 27, 2013, 01:49:07 am »


I said in the decription by the auction house the tooling is mentioned. This defect is catered by the small price. I am not defending the auction house, they have an obvious slavey fake I already posted, and molinari posted another bronze italian fake. And I suspect other ones as well. As I said it is obvious these 200 coins are coming from the collection of sb that passed and possibly bought these are authentics, and the auction house put everything on auction.

To which I say so what?  

The fact that tooling is mentioned is irrelevant to the fact that it is a badly tooled coin which is the subject of the thread.  

The fact that the tooling is mentiond in the description doesn't alter the fact that the coin is misattributed, nor does it in anyway remove the responsibility for both correct attribution and mention that the tooling has created a totally false mint control when the coin is correctly attributed.

The fact that it is accompanied by other crap material doesn't alter in any way that it is a badly tooled, deceptive coin and thus worthy of posting in the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here. More worthy of the title badly tooled than most of the coins posted previously, by virtue of the complete falsification of the mint control resultant from tooling.

Does the fact (if it is as you hypothesize) that this is part of someone's collection being sold lessen the responsibility for this badly tooled coin, or in some way make it less badly tooled? I think not! On your logic it appears that any crap that finds its way into an auction from someone's collection is turned into something acceptable and that this "provenance" removes the auction house of any responsibility for authentication, accurate description and attribution. On the contrary in my humble opinion, but you may differ, as is you prerogative. In any event this aspect was not the subject of my original post, but rather irrelevant "smoke" that you have sought to blow over the subject of why and how this is a badly tooled coin.

I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it.

So where is the "big deal" in posting this badly tooled coin with an explanation of what is wrong with it?
Logged
paparoupa
Parasitica Cliens
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 315


« Reply #467 on: October 27, 2013, 04:24:19 am »


So where is the "big deal" in posting this badly tooled coin with an explanation of what is wrong with it?

Lloyd you made several comments on how reputable is the spanish auction house and how ignorant they are and so on. I said they are small players in the field usually selling inexpensive ancient greek lots and out of coincidence a serious collection ended up with them. You commented on the vendor, you could have discussed the coin only as you propose we should be all be doing. On the occassion of the Rhodes coins where indeed reputable and knowledgable dealers were involved, the thread was closed in a hurry, nobody cared about the "suckers" that got the fake coins, and I was instructed to not inform the forum about the answers of the vendors.
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4772



WWW
« Reply #468 on: October 27, 2013, 04:36:52 am »

I've always been a vigorous opponent of tooling, because it deceives collectors and destroys real ancient coins, and an even more vigorous opponent of undisclosed or lame excuses for tooling ("lightly smoothed" being the phrase I hate most of all, weasel words that say nothing straight but act as some sort of cloak for a dishonest seller). This thread is a place to complain about and highlight tooled coins, and to complain about the nature of deceptive sales practices relating to tooled coins and to give fair warning to collectors. This coin rightly belongs in this thread, and all credit to Lloyd for pointing out and explaining its terrible defects. I think it's also right to note a rare instance of a seller actually describing a coin as tooled, hence giving a warning when disposing of a very bad coin. If only more did so...
Logged

Joe Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM STAFF
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9597


All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.


WWW
« Reply #469 on: October 27, 2013, 04:48:57 am »

Price is not relevant when discussing a fake or tooled coin.  A low price does not make it less fake or less tooled.

Being correctly identified as fake or tooled coin in the sellers description is relevant only in that it provides evidence the coin is fake or tooled.

Seller's description or attribution errors are not important here.  This board is about coins not sellers.  We should NOT insult vendors here, even if they are anonymous, unless we are nominating them for the Notorious Fake Seller List.  

Logged

Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS
paparoupa
Parasitica Cliens
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 315


« Reply #470 on: October 27, 2013, 05:28:45 pm »

From the same source as the diotos one above, marked as tooled
Logged

paparoupa
Parasitica Cliens
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 315


« Reply #471 on: October 27, 2013, 05:30:03 pm »

And another one
Logged

Molinari
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4037


Herakles cheated!


WWW
« Reply #472 on: October 27, 2013, 05:50:47 pm »

And another one

I don't see where this one is tooled.
Logged

paparoupa
Parasitica Cliens
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 315


« Reply #473 on: October 28, 2013, 12:56:00 am »

And another one

I don't see where this one is tooled.

The tooling is declared in this auction. From the ex-venue:"Gestalt der Sosipolis auf dem Revers überarbeitet"
Apart from Sosipolis' head that is declared as tooled, I believe that the horses' tails are also tooled.
Logged

paparoupa
Parasitica Cliens
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 315


« Reply #474 on: October 30, 2013, 04:45:48 am »

From the usual german ebay shop
Logged

Pages: 1 ... 14 15 16 17 18 [19] 20 21 22 23 24 25 Go Up Print 
FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here « previous next »
Jump to:  

Recent Price Reductions in Forum's Shop


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 2.851 seconds with 70 queries.