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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Forum (Moderator: goldenancients)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 96062 times)
Taras
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« Reply #450 on: September 02, 2013, 02:54:54 pm »

I had a look to the ebay store of the German seller.
It is no longer a numismatic shop, it's an Horror-Theatre!
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Frans Diederik
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« Reply #451 on: September 02, 2013, 03:52:30 pm »

This is indeed horrible!!


Frans
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HELEN S
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« Reply #452 on: September 02, 2013, 03:55:59 pm »



  GRIM
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paparoupa
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« Reply #453 on: September 02, 2013, 10:36:24 pm »

I had a look to the ebay store of the German seller.
It is no longer a numismatic shop, it's an Horror-Theatre!

 Shocked
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« Reply #454 on: September 03, 2013, 09:04:43 am »

From the german ebay seller
I think there is one Historia Numorum - Italy book for sale that is not tooled Grin
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Taras
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« Reply #455 on: September 26, 2013, 12:12:12 pm »

From the new online catalogue of a German auction house.
All these are tooled, and added of fake patina... now they are genuine ancient modern fakes.

















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Molinari
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« Reply #456 on: September 26, 2013, 12:37:39 pm »

Looks like the same artist worked on this one, which when I asked them if it (the reverse inscription) was tooled, they said all ancient coins are significantly "worked on" but they didn't think it was tooled.
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Taras
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« Reply #457 on: September 26, 2013, 12:40:57 pm »

Sure Nick, the workshop is the same.
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Taras
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« Reply #458 on: September 26, 2013, 12:48:55 pm »

On the same catalog I have found a coin which is not tooled.
...oops it's a fake!!
Just added to the fake reports..
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-15198
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« Reply #459 on: September 26, 2013, 04:09:17 pm »

Perhaps these are the unsolds from their previous auction of tooled crap a few years ago? Either they don't know or don't care, whichever it is, I no longer buy from them.
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Meepzorp
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« Reply #460 on: September 26, 2013, 06:42:43 pm »

Hi folks,

This thread is scaring me. In looking at pages 20 and 21, I recognize only 30-40% of these coins as being tooled and/or fakes. About 60-70% of these coins would have fooled me. In the post that Taras made at the end of page 20 (with the 9 photos), I recognized only one (the Gela one) as being tooled/fake. The other 8 would have fooled me. The coin in the photo in Nick's post at the beginning of page 21 also would have fooled me, as would the "fake patina" RR coin in Andrew's post on page 20.

And I've been collecting ancient coins (especially Magna Graecia) since 1998. Am I not seeing something?

Meepzorp
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ecoli
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« Reply #461 on: September 26, 2013, 08:59:40 pm »

A lot of it has to do with thinking about wear patterns.

If details are fresh on a generally old worn flan, chances are
the details were helped.


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Taras
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« Reply #462 on: September 27, 2013, 04:02:43 am »

Those posts are intended to learn, not to scare.
Panic does not help to solve the problem.
The only way to spot fakes and tooled coins is to train your eyes, reading books, and when your eyes are not still well trained, making "networking" with scholars and collectors.

Bye
Nico
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Molinari
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« Reply #463 on: September 27, 2013, 05:06:50 am »

Quote from: Meepzorp on September 26, 2013, 06:42:43 pm
Hi folks,

This thread is scaring me. In looking at pages 20 and 21, I recognize only 30-40% of these coins as being tooled and/or fakes. About 60-70% of these coins would have fooled me. In the post that Taras made at the end of page 20 (with the 9 photos), I recognized only one (the Gela one) as being tooled/fake. The other 8 would have fooled me. The coin in the photo in Nick's post at the beginning of page 21 also would have fooled me, as would the "fake patina" RR coin in Andrew's post on page 20.

And I've been collecting ancient coins (especially Magna Graecia) since 1998. Am I not seeing something?

Meepzorp

I'm not certain the Agyrion coin is tooled either, but the inscription looks strange, which is why I asked the auction house and ultimately decided not to bid. 
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« Reply #464 on: September 27, 2013, 02:21:39 pm »

Ecoli's comment about wear is one of the main clues that trigger my suspicions.  The higher surfaces of coins wear more.  It is a simple and logical rule but is one that many toolers break especially when they altar hair and drapery.

It is one advantage of having a low end collection.  I have a few hundred large bronzes of the mid-1st to mid-3rd c, mostly sestertii but some dupondii and asses.  While I like my little collection I recognize that they are not high end coins.  What they are though is worn and as a result I know what worn large bronzes look like. 

Shawn
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SC
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #465 on: October 09, 2013, 08:35:54 pm »

Oh my beard! And what happened to my hair? Why is my nose so pointy?!

Described as such for those who did not notice at first glance....


SELEUKID KINGS of SYRIA. Seleukos I Nikator. 312-281 BC. AR Tetradrachm (26mm, 17.07 g, 10h). Seleukeia II mint. Struck circa 296/5-281 BC. Laureate head of Zeus right / Athena in quadriga of horned elephants right, brandishing spear and shield; anchor above, ΔΝ in exergue. SC 130.11; HGC 9, 18a. VF, toned, obverse tooled.

I dare say its from the same tooler's hand as the one I posted earlier in the thread - easily recognized handiwork in the tooled beard and hair style. A shame really and arguably not reflected in the hefty estimate! I guess that fools and their money are always waiting to be separated.
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« Reply #466 on: October 10, 2013, 07:13:19 am »

Some weeks ago I posted a Starr Group V tetradrachm from the same auction but my post was deleted
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #467 on: October 25, 2013, 12:07:37 am »

Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.

A coin of Diodotos II of Baktria bearing the posthumous image of his father Diodotos I. Heavily tooled, but the obverse portrait style is distinctve of the issues that constitute Holt's Group B1-B3 all bearing the idealised posthumous image of Diodotos I.  

So far so good, tooling aside.

However, turn to the reverse and we find a crudely approximated mint control (the pitchfork symbol) that never occurrred on the coinage in the name of Diodotos. Its only to be found (in much more refined form with some additional detail missing from the tooled item) on the much earlier coinage in the name of Antiochos issued by Diodotos I at the time he was nominally the Seleucid Satrap of Baktria. The only controls on the coins bearing the posthumous portrait of Diodotos I (Holt Groups B1-B1) are a wreath, or a crescent or none at all.  In all liklhood this coin pre-tooling was an example of the last noted type - no control!

Some poor sod will potentially buy this piece of maliciously tooled junk and believe he has a unique and unrecorded coin!

Equally egregious is the vendor's description of it as a coin of Diodotos I. Diodotos I never issued coins in the name of Diodotos; all were in the name of his nominal suzerain, Antiochos. It fell to his son, Diodotos II, to proclaim complete independence on coinage in the name of Diodotos.  

Clearly the vendor, despite reputation, has little knowledge of that which he is authenticating and attributing!
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Taras
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« Reply #468 on: October 25, 2013, 12:14:12 am »

Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.

A coin of Diodotos II of Baktria bearing the posthumous image of his father Diodotos I. Heavily tooled, but the obverse portrait style is distinctve of the issues that constitute Holt's Group B1-B3 all bearing the idealised posthumous image of Diodotos I.  

So far so good, tooling aside.

However, turn to the reverse and we find a crudely approximated mint control (the pitchfork symbol) that never occurrred on the coinage in the name of Diodotos. Its only to be found (in much more refined form with some additional detail missing from the tooled item) on the much earlier coinage in the name of Antiochos issued by Diodotos I at the time he was nominally the Seleucid Satrap of Baktria. The only controls on the coins bearing the posthumous portrait of Diodotos I (Holt Groups B1-B1) are a wreath, or a crescent or none at all.  

Some poor sod will potentially buy this piece of maliciously tooled junk and believe he has a unique and unrecorded coin!

In cases like this I wonder where tooling ends and forgery begins.
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #469 on: October 25, 2013, 12:21:23 am »

In cases like this I wonder where tooling ends and forgery begins.

Certainly its a blurred line. Call it what we will, tooling or forgery, the potentially adverse consequence of this sort of activity on the  understanding and interpretation of the numismatic record is profound.
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« Reply #470 on: October 26, 2013, 12:01:45 pm »

Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.

Clearly the vendor, despite reputation, has little knowledge of that which he is authenticating and attributing!


I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...
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« Reply #471 on: October 26, 2013, 12:21:36 pm »

I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...

I agree with this sentiment. If a coin is described as tooled and is offered at a low price, you know exactly what you are bidding on. I've no problems with that, even if the tooling resulted in inadvertent changes - tooling by definition always causes changes to the coins design; when disclosed and priced, its no different from when a reputable dealer offers Cavinos or group lots of black cabinet reproductions.
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #472 on: October 26, 2013, 11:32:16 pm »

I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...

I agree with this sentiment. If a coin is described as tooled and is offered at a low price, you know exactly what you are bidding on. I've no problems with that, even if the tooling resulted in inadvertent changes - tooling by definition always causes changes to the coins design; when disclosed and priced, its no different from when a reputable dealer offers Cavinos or group lots of black cabinet reproductions.

So tooling is only unacceptable if it is offered at a high price?  Huh  

The title of the tread is Badly Tooled Coins Here with no qualifiaction as to sale practices, or offered prices.

This coin is clearly badly tooled, to the point of being numismatically misleading to those unfamiliar with the type and it is misattributed. Cheap or not does not enter the consideration of what constitutes badly tooled. But of course for the apologists for inept and incompetent dealers this matters little, to the extent that it is equated with  being ...no different from when a reputable dealer offers Cavinos or group lots of black cabinet reproductions. That last statement is complete bollocks when you examine the facts about this Badly Tooled Coin, its misattribution and the circumstances under which it is offered, that have nothing to do with the starting price that is offered. And since when are fully attributed Cavinos or balck cabinet fakes the same as misattributed tooled coins?  Completely different things as far as I am concerned, and I suggest most would agree that there are no similarities between a reproduction, or balck cabinet fake and a badly tooled coin.

And a starting price is not an estimate and certainly not a price realized. Quite the opposite more often than not. In fact it is usual for the less than scrupulous to post a low starting price with no estimate as a hook to the suckers. But my issue was not with this approach, it never entered the discussion till someone blew this smoke, irrelevant to the consideration, over the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here.

Rather as I said:
Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record......
&
In cases like this I wonder where tooling ends and forgery begins.

Certainly its a blurred line. Call it what we will, tooling or forgery, the potentially adverse consequence of this sort of activity on the  understanding and interpretation of the numismatic record is profound.

So your point is what? That there are acceptable Badly Tooled Coins if they are offered at a cheap price, even if misattributed and bearing no comment on the extent of misleading reworking/addition of erroneous mint controls etc.? Sure no expert will be deceived, but then no expert will be interested in the crap.... the same can be said of any and every tooled coin! If thats your benchmark then all tooled coins are acceptable and pose no risk (to experts).

Your logic seems flawed, to say the least!

It is not experts that buy this sort of material and for such people it is far from clear-cut that ..... If a coin is described as tooled and is offered at a low price, you know exactly what you are bidding on.  In this specific case the inexpert bidder might think he had found a bargain unrecorded Diodotid coin type! Onto that hook you sucker!

But remember, I made no big deal of these aspects, in simply posting a Badly Tooled Coin Here and explaing why it was badly tooled and misattributed. The matter of price never came into this consideration in my original post, that smoke was blown over the subject by the apologist for an inept at best, misleading at worst, dealer who remained completely anonymous in my post.
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #473 on: October 27, 2013, 12:08:08 am »

Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.

Clearly the vendor, despite reputation, has little knowledge of that which he is authenticating and attributing!


I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...

What has the offered price got to do with the consideration of a Badly Tooled Coin posted under the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here?

It is badly tooled and misattributed regardless of the price! Thus it warrants posting here. No big deal was made by me of the matter. Rather it was posted with the facts about it, as just another example of bad tooling (tongue in cheek I ask is there ever good tooling?) which constitutes little more than Numismatic Vandalism.

Are you suggesting that we should only consider tooled coins that are offered at a high price under the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here?

As far as I am concerned if someone reading this thread is made aware of the matter and the problems with this specific coin and then declines to bid on it because he/she understands what it really is, then all the better for it. Only when people stop buying tooled crap with tooling cease.
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« Reply #474 on: October 27, 2013, 01:31:41 am »

Numismatic Vandalism: For sale in an upcoming auction from a high profile Spanish auction house, this criminal piece of the toolers art is noteworthy for its attempt to re-write the numismatic record.

Clearly the vendor, despite reputation, has little knowledge of that which he is authenticating and attributing!


I note that the coin is marked as tooled in the description and the starting price is 50 euros so let's not make a big deal out of it. They are a really minor player in ancient coins auctioning, their usual lots being from scrap metal up to very low end. It is obvious this is the collection of a poor lad that left this world and the inheritors took the collection to be auctioned. So the collector has been fooled with fakes and so on by other vendors while he was collecting...

What has the offered price got to do with the consideration of a Badly Tooled Coin posted under the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here?

It is badly tooled and misattributed regardless of the price! Thus it warrants posting here. No big deal was made by me of the matter. Rather it was posted with the facts about it, as just another example of bad tooling (tongue in cheek I ask is there ever good tooling?) which constitutes little more than Numismatic Vandalism.

Are you suggesting that we should only consider tooled coins that are offered at a high price under the thread titled Badly Tooled Coins Here?

As far as I am concerned if someone reading this thread is made aware of the matter and the problems with this specific coin and then declines to bid on it because he/she understands what it really is, then all the better for it. Only when people stop buying tooled crap with tooling cease.

I said in the decription by the auction house the tooling is mentioned. This defect is catered by the small price. I am not defending the auction house, they have an obvious slavey fake I already posted, and molinari posted another bronze italian fake. And I suspect other ones as well. As I said it is obvious these 200 coins are coming from the collection of sb that passed and possibly bought these as authentics, and the auction house put everything on auction.

You didn't name the auction house, but there are 3 spanish auction houses only...And why did you mention the provenance if you want to discuss the coin only?

I think there are many members including Joe that are a bit exaggerating with the "we discuss coins not dealers and prices" motto. The coins are not spawning as mushrooms in our gardens and as far as I know it is illegal if you go out in Greece with a metal detector.For each coin I have there was always a dealer and a price and sadly money set aside and saved to buy it.
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