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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 109163 times)
benito
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« Reply #425 on: November 09, 2012, 02:13:31 pm »

IMO quite heavy enhancing on obverse and general beauty parlor treatment. People for dinner, so tomorrow I will show what IMO is the before and after of
one of the the best tooling jobs  I have ever seen.
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benito
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« Reply #426 on: November 10, 2012, 01:55:48 am »

Still under the effects of too much liquor , too many bragging  collectors together (50 $ for a aVF Caligula and sisters) and some angry wifes but here is the announced before and after the beauty parlor + some useful implements. ( Click to enlarge.)
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curtislclay
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« Reply #427 on: November 11, 2012, 02:26:42 pm »

When you already know the answer to a question, why pose it to the board?
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #428 on: November 11, 2012, 05:53:35 pm »

Well, to me the 'answer' is less whether or not the work on it amounts to 'tooling' but: In what respects does the 'conservator' give himself/herself away? 
So I'd say that the comparison is highly instructive for all of us who have handled fewer coins than Curtis (to name one) has.
I was about to post a reply asserting that the 'conservator' betrayed his ignorance of the articulation of the right leg, i.e., the Standbein.  Enough of the original metal shows on the BW photo of the knee and calf to show where he erred.  One detail is enough; I won't bore you all with more.
Pat L.
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Molinari
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« Reply #429 on: December 05, 2012, 06:59:42 am »

This one belongs here.  At least it is labeled as such.

Sicily, Bronze,The Sileraioi, c. 357-336 a.C., AE, (g 7,50, mm 20, h 11). SI?EPAION, forepart of man-faced bull r.; around linear border, Rv. SI?, warrior advancing r., wearing helmet, holding spear and shield. CNS III, n. 3; SNG ANS -. Rare. Dark patina. Tooled. About extremely fine.
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« Reply #430 on: December 05, 2012, 11:02:04 am »

When you already know the answer to a question, why pose it to the board?

I think the point was that no one can really tell from an image whether a tool is definitely tooled or not.  Maybe he works for NGC?
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« Reply #431 on: December 06, 2012, 05:22:56 am »

When you already know the answer to a question, why pose it to the board?

I think the point was that no one can really tell from an image whether a tool is definitely tooled or not.  Maybe he works for NGC?

Sometimes you can tell from an image, sometimes you cannot.  Sometimes, but not often, it is very difficult to tell, even with the coin in hand.
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« Reply #432 on: January 25, 2013, 06:04:26 pm »

Up the usual standards of our well known IAPN accredited central European dealer. He is very consistent.
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #433 on: March 01, 2013, 10:52:40 pm »

This is a classic. Yes some Roman bronzes have a three-pellet ooo value mark below the prow. Just not this denomination! How deeply did they have to tool to convert the word ROMA into ooo?
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Sosius
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« Reply #434 on: March 02, 2013, 08:51:32 pm »

Up the usual standards of our well known IAPN accredited central European dealer. He is very consistent.

Wow, that's hideous!
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benito
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« Reply #435 on: March 03, 2013, 02:02:41 am »

Up the usual standards of our well known IAPN accredited central European dealer. He is very consistent.

Wow, that's hideous!

What's the meaning of IAPN ?
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Aarmale
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« Reply #436 on: March 03, 2013, 08:48:39 am »

According to NumisWiki, it is the "International Association of Professional Numismatists."
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« Reply #437 on: April 01, 2013, 10:29:27 am »

Here's one I found on another "coins for sale" website:

Septimius Severus Sestertius.

Apparently the seller has been notified and it has since been withdrawn from sale.

Regards,
mz
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« Reply #438 on: April 01, 2013, 11:39:47 am »

It's good enough to fool a (self-proclaimed) numismatic expert, so it must be a very goodly tooled coin.  Roll Eyes
I think it's a close relative of Mr. Tooly's.
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Taras
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« Reply #439 on: May 04, 2013, 07:48:19 am »

From the next auction catalogue of a well known german dealer.
Yet another ancient coin to burn, victim of an obtuse, anachronistic and disturbing "principle of novelty" that appears to have spread inexorably the German market of ancient coins.
The authors of this nonsense should be charged with vandalism.
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« Reply #440 on: May 18, 2013, 12:31:53 pm »

The below-illustrated coin, currently on fleabay, is, for me, an evident tooled fake. The obverse style is completely unrelated to either anchor series; ROMA is evidently cut freshly in small neat letters as is the anchor and the number I. Such a pretty smooth obverse profile is unknown in RR bronzes. Note the difference in the number I on obv and rev. This coin was probably recut from a worn anonymous bronze of my G3 series, as classified here:
http://andrewmccabe.ancients.info/RRC056.html

For the wider list who perhaps don't have my familiarity with RR bronzes, I wanted to draw attention to the nature of the tooling / smoothing and repatination that produces this superficially attractive green-brown surfaces, as well as the unusually small, neat lettering and the unusually small and neat symbol on the reverse. These are warning signs.
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« Reply #441 on: May 18, 2013, 03:56:18 pm »

Thanks Andrew, your description helps us newbies understand what's wrong. Your patience and care to insert that is appreciated.

Cary Riggs

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« Reply #442 on: June 13, 2013, 02:20:09 am »

Here's a fantasy Domitian's sestertius seen on trade on fleabay.

Everything is wrong here: MONETA reverse was struck only for asses, obverse legend doesn't exist, portrait is completely wrong for a supposedly 90-91 AD coin.

IF there was a real coin under the fake patina and before the massive tooling, it could have been a Pax sestertius of Vespasian or Titus, about 74 A.D..

Kind regards

Alberto

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Curtis
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« Reply #443 on: June 13, 2013, 12:35:05 pm »

I also have one "beautiful" example of tooling...

Could those be two nearly identical cast fakes?

Yes, i was puzzled with this coin too. This part of scratch looks really strange. But a wear looks good, and exist and another examples from this obv. die at close condition, which seems undoubtly struck.
So, i think it's mostly crazy tooling, not forgery. IMHO.

That is great research, xintaris75!

I immediately thought forgery as Joe said. You convinced me otherwise for a second, with the other coin. But how did the first pair end up being so identical (minus the bizarre scratch/crack) in their placement and position on the flan, and in the flan shape? It seems like someone was making forgeries with that die (or set of dies), and once it cracked, they shopped the die to give the flan a different shape. Is that possible? I just can't shake the first pair of images. The flans appear 100% identical with identical die positioning, only differing in that crack. Couldn't the die have later been reshaped to create the flan shape on the third coin you show?

I'm just thinking "out loud," but it seems odd to me...
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Taras
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« Reply #444 on: July 09, 2013, 12:45:58 pm »

Bruttium, Lokris
9,37g; 11,5mm

dreadful tooling
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Taras
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« Reply #445 on: July 11, 2013, 08:42:24 am »

Lucania, Metapontion
Weight: 3.3 g.
Diameter: 12 mm.
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Curtis
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« Reply #446 on: July 24, 2013, 11:55:20 am »

That is a very sad case, indeed, if it's truly tooled, since the "improvements" would only add minimal value to a piece that is already of great value. The "tooled" eye seems to look about like it ought to, but it would have been one of the first, highest relief details to wear off, and the coin has enough general wear elsewhere that it's not believable. Quite perplexing, since I can't imagine the tooling, if it "passed" as real detail, would add more than minuscule value to a coin that would otherwise have already been worth multiple thousands of US$. (I might not have caught it on a quick glance, though). Good example.
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« Reply #447 on: July 24, 2013, 12:01:58 pm »

Taras, I'm not sure where the tooling is on this one. Can you point it out? It's just the kind of bronze coin I would want for my family's private, "no-sell" collection, so I'm interested to know where you see it.
Grain ear?
Bust?
Thanks!
Curtis


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« Reply #448 on: July 24, 2013, 12:31:03 pm »

Curtis, look at the obverse: eyes, nose, lips, chin and ear are roughly tooled, you can clearly see the traces left by chisels. Result: the style is horribly distorted, you should look at the plates of the Johnston's work on the bronze coinage of Metapontion, to make a comparison with this monstrosity. If ever I were drunk enough to buy it, this is the kind of coin I'd put in the "freak section" of my collection.

Bye Smiley
Nico
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paparoupa
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« Reply #449 on: September 02, 2013, 09:54:06 am »

From the next auction catalogue of a well known german dealer.
Yet another ancient coin to burn, victim of an obtuse, anachronistic and disturbing "principle of novelty" that appears to have spread inexorably the German market of ancient coins.
The authors of this nonsense should be charged with vandalism.

The beauty re-appeared in a german auction catalogue, Oct 2013
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here « previous next »
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