Classical Numismatics Discussion
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Augustus sestertius fake 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Augustus sestertius fake  (Read 3162 times)
raga
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« on: March 23, 2009, 01:35:37 pm »

I reported these fakes back in 2005:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-6772

I think this coin is an identical fake.

Opinions?

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postvmvs
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2009, 02:53:09 pm »

Base on the toning, I'd say its the same specimen as listed in the Fake Reports.

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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2009, 08:43:21 pm »

Definitely the same coin.  It's a heck of a fake.
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raga
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2009, 02:22:15 pm »

The seller has removed the item. But any comments about another coin of the same type sold for 3800 CHF in 2008. Comments about the style of Augustus hair and the weakness at reverse?

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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2009, 02:34:08 pm »

Well, the flan shape and ares of weak striking are identical so either this is the host coin from which the other fakes have been created or more likely it is another fake. Some of the details look to me like they've been "enhanced" with tooling.
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2009, 07:49:31 pm »

It certainly does look like a tooled version of the above fake.

Richard
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Numerianus
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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2009, 07:33:53 am »

Is there any of these coins
"Ex Prince Waldeck Coll., Auction Münzhandlung Basel 8, 22 March 1937, lot 541."?
As was stated at:
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=224927&AucID=325&Lot=1373
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=85708&AucID=92&Lot=112
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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2009, 07:41:19 am »

Is there any of these coins
"Ex Prince Waldeck Coll., Auction Münzhandlung Basel 8, 22 March 1937, lot 541."?
As was stated at:
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=224927&AucID=325&Lot=1373
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=85708&AucID=92&Lot=112


Numerianus,

Both coins you mention cannot be the same # 541 of "Ex Prince Waldeck Coll., Auction Münzhandlung Basel 8, 22 March 1937".

Good job at finding them and pointing out !
Potator
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2009, 07:56:15 am »

It is not me, thank xintaris75!
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xintaris75
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2009, 08:02:11 am »

It is not me, thank xintaris75!

And not me - it's spotted by Cliff Laubstein at CFDL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CoinForgeryDiscussionList/message/25713
I'm just looks carefully at descriptions and understood what second "coin" can't be a tooled first. Because last have more heavily weght.
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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2009, 08:17:34 am »

There was such a coin in the Basel 8 sale of 1937, illustrated from a plaster cast on pl. 22, weight not given.

These cast fakes probably belong to a group of excellent casts that were produced around 1700 or before, and that have made their way into many famous collections, public and private.  I said something about them in my commentary on false contorniates in the commentary volume of A. and E. Alföldi's work on contorniates.
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Curtis Clay
raga
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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2009, 01:30:08 pm »

Please see the attached scan from the Basel catalogue in 1937.

I wonder how all these professional dealers (M&M, CNG, Munz. Basel, UBS etc) can sell the specimens without asking question about the style of Augustus. It doesn't look right....

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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2009, 01:44:27 pm »

The correct text for this coin is at lot 541. 

The illustration is numbered 542 in error.

I regard it as certain that the host of these casts was an authentic ancient sestertius. Therefore the style must be correct, apart from minor alterations due to modern tooling.
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2009, 03:26:51 pm »

I asked Mr McFadden (CNG) about the style of the seated Augustus (UBS specimen).

His answer:

"The one thing I can say is that the style of the seated Augustus is highly unusual, and I would think in any event that the details must be the result of modern tooling, whether the tooling is done on this coin itself or on a model from which this piece is cast."
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« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2009, 03:42:39 pm »

I agree: the head and clothing of Augustus have been slightly tooled on the UBS specimen, also the covering that the nearest elephant seems to wear.

Untooled pieces from the same obverse die: Banti-Simonetti, Corpus VI, p. 148, 932, 932/2, 932/3.
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2009, 01:52:28 am »

It is a stunning news: in 17th century someone  made cast copies of such quality  that in 20th and 21th centuries experts
of the major auction houses could not spot forgery!!!
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« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2009, 12:26:03 pm »

It's not necessarily a 'in spite of the age', but a 'because of', I think. Modern forgeries in 300+ years will show genuine aging and will be more deceptive than today, too. And if they have a pedigree for many decades before sale, even more.

Stefan
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xintaris75
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« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2009, 12:31:21 pm »

300+ years old cast copy ?
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« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2009, 12:36:07 pm »

It is a stunning news: in 17th century someone  made cast copies of such quality  that in 20th and 21th centuries experts
of the major auction houses could not spot forgery!!!

The casts are good enough that, unless an identical twin turns up, you wouldn't really think to question them!

Occasionally the host coin is known too, and you can see that the casts are decidedly inferior to the original, but since FINE originals were chosen, the casts still look quite good!

Yes, some of the old forgers were very accomplished: it still happens today that experienced scholars, dealers, or collectors are deceived by a Paduan (16th cent.) or a Becker (19th cent.)!
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2019, 03:01:15 pm »

Here we go again:

[LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN - DO NOT LINK TO COMMERCIAL SITES]
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« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2019, 11:36:32 am »

Hi folks,

My example looks very similar to that coin. Could it be a cast copy of it?

Here is my example (scroll down, fourth coin):

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/ri_aug_ae_ptR01.htm

I've had suspicions about my example for several years because it has a "soft" or "soapy" look to it.

Meepzorp
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« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2019, 12:08:24 pm »

Meepzorp, your coin is not related in any way to these fakes.
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« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2019, 12:13:12 pm »

I have seen some of these old casts and they are very deceptive. There are some excellent posts above from Curtis and I also agree with Stefan...

It's not necessarily a 'in spite of the age', but a 'because of', I think. Modern forgeries in 300+ years will show genuine aging and will be more deceptive than today, too. And if they have a pedigree for many decades before sale, even more.

Stefan
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raga
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« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2019, 04:58:02 pm »

My point was missed since the admin removed a link. But I have sent a email to [REMOVED BY ADMIN] about the possible fake. They have responded today and will withdraw the coin from the sale. It is the [REMOVED BY ADMIN] from an auction in 2008.
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« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2019, 10:49:00 am »

raga, the only sellers named here are those on or being nominated for the Notorious Fake Seller List.  Please review the rules here: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=80768.0.
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Augustus sestertius fake « previous next »
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