Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Verus aurei: see the difference  (Read 5751 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Verus aurei: see the difference
« on: February 13, 2009, 08:58:13 am »
The  question here is:  an aureus of Lucius Verus is it a fake.

The coin was sold on an auction on January 11, 2005 and the following information
can be easily find:

Lot description:

Lucius Verus (AD 161-169). Gold aureus (7.37 gm). Rome, AD 164. L VERVS AVG ARMENIACVS, bare head right /
REX ARMEN DAT TR P IIII IMP II COS II, L. Verus, flanked by lictor shouldering fasces and another standing
attendant, seated left on camp chair on platform, extending his right hand to crown Armenian king who stands
left before platform, raising his right hand to guide the crown onto his head.
BMCRE 300. Cohen 158 (100 Fr.). RIC 512 (R2). Calico 2154 (same dies).
Mint state. Verus had been victorious in Armenia in 163, accepting an imperatorial acclamation and the title Armeniacus.
In 164 the coins show him investing the Roman nominee Sohaemus as king of Armenia: "a king given to the Armenians."
The same obverse die was also used with the type Victory inscribing VIC AVG onto a shield set on a palm tree (BMCRE 294, pl. 58, 9).

The coin, in fact, is not rare and all large collections of aurei conntain a specimen, always uncirculated
and coming from the same pair of dies. 
In the recent decade several dozens of coins of this type was sold by the major numismatic firms.
This is explained that, presumably, all coins came from the so-called Aventine hoard of 1893 the history of which was
discussed in the thread
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=50988.0

In fact, the sources I disposed at the moment do not confirm this: Cohen 158 was  not mentioned between
types found.
I show three specimens. The first specimen is of the most common type. The second one is the mentioned one.
 The specimen with 5 cercles in the left part of the platform seems to be produced by the later state of the reverse
die.

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Gemini Verus aureus
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2009, 09:01:06 am »
During lengthy discussions the specimen became the subject of a detailed analysis as a possible fake.
The reason for this is that the obverse of this soin was supposedly made by the same die as other aurei.
At least, it greatly resembles.
To such extent that Curtis Clay believed that it is the same and claimed:
"I think that's the same obv. die too, just differently illuminated and photographed."
"In my opinion, formed over many decades of compiling die studies of Roman imperial coins, there are so many points of absolute identity, that the dies must be the same. 

Two apparent points of DIFFERENCE, cannot outweigh the 100 or so points of absolute IDENTITY. 
I don't think there is any real difference in the beard, and as for the apparent slight displacement of the dot, who knows,
one would have to examine the specimens themselves or plaster casts of them under magnification.

As a rule, one does not find Roman dies which differ in only a few small points, but are otherwise identical. 
When dies are different, they differ in dozens of details, as was to be expected since they were engraved freehand!
"

Unfortunately, one must admit that the dies are different. Moreover, one cannot explain the difference just because
they are different state of the same die (altered by re-engraving or repairing), fotoshoping or the light effects.
To my opinion, the Gemini coin is produced by a different die which could not be produced by a "freehand".
The reverse die also have some particularities needed to be explaned. 

It seems is reasonable to transfer the discussion on this particular coin to the fake section frequented by
"fake hunters" whose experience may help us greatly. I hope also that the thread on Aventine hoard will be extended
by new observations.

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Gemini Verus aureus
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2009, 05:00:47 am »
Silence...
OK, do you think that there is enough evidences to conclude? Namely, like this:
 
"The second coin auctioned 2005 has the obverse produced from the die  different from that used for other coins.
This die is closed to the authentic one to such extent that it can be  only a modern copy.
The fake report should be prepared".


I have modified slightly the arrangements of the blow-ups showing the differences.
Note that the Baldwin examples seems to be  fresher. One cannot explain the position of the dot in the
second coin just because the die was polished to such an extent that the dot dissapeared and was re-engraved.
On, apparently, the latest state it is (almost) on the same position as before. The same remark can be applied to
the substential difference in the character E of the legend.

Note that if we admit that second coin is a fake, the clouds become darker on all other specimens. Indeed, if someone is able to create such a quality copy, why he did not try to continue further in the same spirit and try to do better?
I do not exlude that there are other copies between authentic specimens.
One may ask why there are so many specimens appeared on the market recently, hundred years after the discovery
of the Aventine hoard etc. I am suspicious why there are flow lines on the die. Is it common?

There are forum members that are very smart with Photoshop and know  how to remove distortions and make a superpositions of photos. It would be interesting to check what is going on with other examples. Some of them have some differences that are not easy to explain by the  different states of the dies.


Offline xintaris75

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 346
Re: Gemini Verus aureus
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2009, 02:03:24 pm »
I just want to remind for all members a story with fake Leontini tetradrachmes. https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=50401.0
Maybe i'm wrong, but i see very clear parralels within these two stories:
"Hoard myth"
"Same dies with minor differents"
"Passing through worldclass auktion houses"
etc...
Well, a Leontini dies was published at BOC, maybe IAPN experts must took attention and at this story?
P.S. A "silence" is not a good solution for this problem, i think...
Ω ΖΕΥ, ΠΑΤΕΡ ΖΕΥ,
ΣΟΝ ΜΕΝ ΟΥΡΑΝΟΥ ΚΡΑΤΟΣ.
ΣΥ Δ' ΕΡΓ' ΕΠ' ΑΝΘΡΩΠΩΝ ΟΡΑΪΣ
ΛΕΩΡΓΑ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΜΙΣΤΑ.
ΣΟΙ ΔΕ ΘΗΡΙΩΝ ΥΒΡΙΣ ΤΕ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΚΗ ΜΕΛΕΙ.

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Gemini Verus aureus
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2009, 03:12:01 am »
Silence...
Do you think that it would be fair to ask first the auction house about this troubling discovery?
To whom I should address?
In fact, the business is based on the confidence of customers. So, the auction houses  are much more interested that
all dubious cases are elucidated than just amateur observers.

I recall that the reverse of this coin also deviates from other examples. The trouble is that there are even less points
of difference  but they are more difficult to explain.
 Please, look at the soldier figure. There is a scratch behind except the last one (with the altered/repaired die). On the Gemini coin this scratch looks like a detail of the design and the bases of the characters are closer to the sholder and look differently... 

aj

  • Guest
Re: Gemini Verus aureus
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2009, 04:19:23 am »
There are a number of parts to the question.

Firstly the description made is that the coin is rare, or similar words. Well perhaps it is not common is the best answer.

As for the fake claim, well even the best of people make mistakes. however I will point out that in specific silver hoards recently reviewed a high percentage of the coins are from the same die. As if the coins were commissioned for a specific purpose and struck as such. The deal was done from the one source to the one receiver and through circumstances the 'hoard' was hoarded and has since been uncovered.

So perhaps we have a similar incident here but in gold. Note silver was the preferred metal in the oriental trade.

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Gemini Verus aureus
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2009, 04:48:17 am »
I will point out that in specific silver hoards recently reviewed a high percentage of the coins are from the same die.
So perhaps we have a similar incident here but in gold.
I am sorry, but I do not understand the direction of your answer. Nobody (and there are hundreds and hundreds visits
of the two threads) was surprised that the hoard coins could are from the same die.
This happens quite often.
In this thread we discuss only the AUTHENTICITY of a single coin, namely, the specimen auctioned in 2005.
To other issues I would prefer comment in the thread on the Aventine hoard.

aj

  • Guest
Re: Gemini Verus aureus
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2009, 06:26:29 am »
Now that my statement is accepted and the air on that issue is somewhat clear or at least clear to me (and possibly a few others) a person is questioning the authenticity of one single coin.

For what purpose is this being done? To expose this auction house of presumably an honest error. Did you, yourself, or an acquaintance buy this coin? I have a number of recently recorded instances where a European coin house endeavoured a major deceit on a client or two but that matter has been resolved. However we have with this auction group two of the great houses of ancient coin sales that combine from time to time and from time to time there have been suggestions of a coin or two slipping through that have been suggested to be fake. Accussations are rather common of fakery at present and many of them are unproven.

There is in this case no general reason to assume at all that the coin is a fake and given the guarantee from such auctions if it were proven to be I am sure arrangements would be made to the satisfaction of all concerned.

Is this a ciop out by me? Yes absolutely because there is no real reason to suspect a problem.


aj

  • Guest
Re: Gemini Verus aureus
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2009, 07:25:26 am »
Fine, what ever is to be removed can be removed by a moderator.

Your so called simple question is rather more complex than is being suggested.

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Gemini Verus aureus
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2009, 07:57:33 am »
There is in this case no general reason to assume at all that the coin is a fake...
You are the first person who took a clear position...
To my opinion, there is a reason and I am trying to share my conclusions with others.
The logic is very elementary:
Are  dies the same as for other specimens?
Two answers: YES or NO.
If you prefer to say "YES", you need to explain a few apparent differencies, e.g., the shift  of the dot and
the style of the characters E.
If you say "NO", i.e. the dies are different you are invited to confront the statement of Curtis Clay.

In fact, you have the same right to make a study of authenticity of this coin as anybody else: to compare, to search the literature,
to use all your experience to provide arguments pro and contra...
To my mind large preparotary work is already done due to efforts by Xintaris75, Mark Fox, Maffeo and others...
 

Offline Molinari

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4549
  • My defeat, if understood, should be my glory
Re: Gemini Verus aureus
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2009, 03:09:30 pm »
It seems to me that the second coin is from a different die than the first and third.  No, I'm not challenging Curtis, that'd be like a flea attacking an elephant, but they look different to me.  I think the base of the neck is where this is most evident.  Also, looking at the inscription and hair appears to demonstrate this.  Maybe they are the same die and one was just re-worked after much use- as was suggested by another member.

Is it fake?  I don't know.  But to my eye the dies look different.

I also don't think any expert would confirm or deny this coin's authenticity from the photos alone, and for good reason.

Nick

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Gemini Verus aureus
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2009, 03:42:31 pm »
It seems to me that the second coin is from a different die than the first and third.  No, I'm not challenging Curtis, that'd be like a flea attacking an elephant, but they look different to me.  I think the base of the neck is where this is most evident.  Also, looking at the inscription and hair appears to demonstrate this.  Maybe they are the same die and one was just re-worked after much use- as was suggested by another member.

Is it fake?  I don't know.  But to my eye the dies look different.

I also don't think any expert would confirm or deny this coin's authenticity from the photos alone, and for good reason.
No, it will not be an attack of the elephant. You have an advantage to see the arrangements of enlarged pictures to
compare details.
So, your idea is whether the  die is not just a different state. To re-cut the dot at the beginning of the legend one needs quite an effort: to remove a layer of the metal to the bottom of the pit. Similar efforts one needs to re-engrave the character E.
For which reason? Anyway, how to explain the existence of the third coin where we see, rather clealy, that a previous state of the obverse die is combined with a later state of the reverse die? 
To my mind,  the hypothesis that  the die is just another state of the same  fails. We must admit  the existence of another set of dies used to fabricate the second coin...

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Verus aurei: see the difference
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2009, 05:24:24 pm »
Just to be clear - we are now talking about ONE fake coin?
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Verus aurei: see the difference
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2009, 03:09:17 am »
Just to be clear - we are now talking about ONE fake coin?
Yes. Whatever is the authenticity of the first and the third specimen, the second coin was struck by different
dies having almost unnoticeable but substantial distinctions. Such kind of distinctions cannot be explauined either than  by an  intention to deceive. So, the second coin seems to be a very dangerous fake.  That is the point.

Offline Jerome Holderman

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1630
  • My name is Jerome, and I am a coinaholic!
Re: Verus aurei: see the difference
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2009, 08:58:43 am »
I really hope one of our imaging experts will do one of those image overlay GIF images on this. I have been trying to figure out how to do it, but am not there yet. Just in doing some transparent layers to me there are some differences that leave me less than certain that these are the same dies. I can't get the images to quite line up, the neck truncation seems off, if I match up the front of the hair and the nose, the back of the neck is off as are many of the letters....... Could just be me making novice errors though as this is the first time I have attempted this..... 

Offline Hydatius

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1061
  • I love this forum!
Re: Verus aurei: see the difference
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2009, 09:37:19 am »
I really hope one of our imaging experts will do one of those image overlay GIF images on this. I have been trying to figure out how to do it, but am not there yet. Just in doing some transparent layers to me there are some differences that leave me less than certain that these are the same dies. I can't get the images to quite line up, the neck truncation seems off, if I match up the front of the hair and the nose, the back of the neck is off as are many of the letters....... Could just be me making novice errors though as this is the first time I have attempted this..... 

Any variation in the camera angle, the angle of the coin, or the lens type can cause these mis-match problems.

Richard
Non tam praeclarum est scire Latine quam turpe nescire.

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Verus aurei: see the difference
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2009, 12:40:02 pm »
One can eliminate in Photoshop linear distortions caused by the camera angle but it will not be of  great
help. We have different details and the arguments are based on this fact. 

Offline Hydatius

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1061
  • I love this forum!
Re: Verus aurei: see the difference
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2009, 03:12:37 pm »
Just playing around I can get VerusBaldwin and Verus5 to match up pretty well, obverse and reverse, but VerusGemini won't match up as well for either one. The dies do seem to be the same, but there are many subtle differences.

Richard
Non tam praeclarum est scire Latine quam turpe nescire.

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Verus aurei: see the difference
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2009, 04:31:43 pm »
I was also trying to play with Photoshop. The conclusion is similar. The dies of the second coin are extremely close but do not match others.

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Verus aurei: see the difference
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2009, 08:55:15 pm »
This was really confusing when it seemed to be about a whole group of coins.  It should be a much simpler question now that is only about one coin.  But it doesn't seem to have become simpler. 

For the ONE coin that is still suspect, are we REALLY sure it is a modified die match (fake)?   Or could it be just from a different official die?  I know what Curtis said but maybe he also was looking at the group of photos as a group and not specifically comparing the ONE coin we now still question.  Just looking, I am not at all sure it is a modified die match and I don't have time to study them or do an overlay.   The posts above do not make the answer clear to me. 
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Verus aurei: see the difference
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2009, 07:31:06 am »
This was really confusing when it seemed to be about a whole group of coins.  It should be a much simpler question now that is only about one coin.  But it doesn't seem to have become simpler. 

For the ONE coin that is still suspect, are we REALLY sure it is a modified die match (fake)?   Or could it be just from a different official die?  I know what Curtis said but maybe he also was looking at the group of photos as a group and not specifically comparing the ONE coin we now still question.  Just looking, I am not at all sure it is a modified die match and I don't have time to study them or do an overlay.   The posts above do not make the answer clear to me. 

Thank you, Joe. It is highly important for our discussion that you see a problem and formulate questions.
It seems that you did agree that the obverse die is different. I also think that Curtis is not oblige to be stick on his opinion. Any person
has a right to make an error.

So, can it be simply a different OFFICIAL die, a rare one? Let us explore this without  relating on the Curtis ststement.
 If we exclude the supposed Aventine hoard aurei we can find vary rare occurencies of a bare head. So, this could be a plasible hypothesis. It is just by chance (namely, due to Aventine hoard) that we have so many bare heads. The bare head was engraved on several dies. There is nothing unusual that we have a bias in the representation of the dies.
Unfortunately, the analysis of the reverse die makes this hypothesis very shaky. The reverse of Gemini 2005, in a certain sense,
is looks even more close to that of a "standard" specimen. But it is also was produced  from a different die.  There are several distinct features.  How do you explain the evolution of the characters behind the head of the soldier: "standard" - G. 2005 - "standard (later state)"?   

Offline Molinari

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4549
  • My defeat, if understood, should be my glory
Re: Verus aurei: see the difference
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2009, 11:04:37 am »
I have tried to follow this discussion but find myself confused again, so I apollogize if you have already answered the following question.

Are you claiming that the Gemini coin is fake because it is so similar to the others that it cannot be a different die?  And so you conclude that the forger used an authentic die to make his fake dies, then made a few alterations to avoid detection?


Nick

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Verus aurei: see the difference
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2009, 02:40:16 pm »

Are you claiming that the Gemini coin is fake because it is so similar to the others that it cannot be a different die?  And so you conclude that the forger used an authentic die to make his fake dies, then made a few alterations to avoid detection?
Nick
Nick, your question is hard to answer because it about the technology used. I think that the obverse is engraved a fresh.
Markers we see on a  "standard" seems to be missing (like dots in front of  the nose). It seems that the precision is lower in the left part of the coin. On the other hand, the reverse looks like a cast copy, enhanced somehow. it is possible that some distortions are caused by
the deformation of the material used to make a copy of the die.  It seems that similar die transfer technique was used to copy the obverse but there were accidents forcing to re-engrave some parts.
Of course, these suggestions has a shaky basis. i do not know how modern forgers are working.  We are still waiting comments of knowledgeable people...

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Verus aurei: see the difference
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2009, 11:36:59 pm »
At this point, I believe the single coin remaining suspect is genuine with a different obverse die and a matching reverse die.  I am not sure what differences on the reverse cannot best be explained by normal die wear and strike variation.   I am not sure what differences on the reverse contradict normal die wear and strike variation. 
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline xintaris75

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 346
Re: Verus aurei: see the difference
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2009, 06:44:47 am »
Maybe, i loss something in these two threads, but i don't uderstand, why you are thinks, what single die is genuine ?
Well, we have some examples of these aurei, which have differencies which can be explained with repair. As well as we have a example with different reverse but exactly same obverse dies. Where in this "model line" a place of this coin ?
Ω ΖΕΥ, ΠΑΤΕΡ ΖΕΥ,
ΣΟΝ ΜΕΝ ΟΥΡΑΝΟΥ ΚΡΑΤΟΣ.
ΣΥ Δ' ΕΡΓ' ΕΠ' ΑΝΘΡΩΠΩΝ ΟΡΑΪΣ
ΛΕΩΡΓΑ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΜΙΣΤΑ.
ΣΟΙ ΔΕ ΘΗΡΙΩΝ ΥΒΡΙΣ ΤΕ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΚΗ ΜΕΛΕΙ.

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity