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Author Topic: Another Soter Megas mint question  (Read 2961 times)

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Offline dougsmit

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Another Soter Megas mint question
« on: March 10, 2009, 04:24:27 pm »
It is really bothering me that I can not separate these coins into mints based on Mitchiner's plates.  This one obviously as squared letter forms and the one surviving Tamgha is three prong but what am I to look at to decide between Kapisa and Balkh?  What little of the legend remains seems to read LEWNLEW rather than the expected LEWNCWT.  Someone please tell me where I missed this one?  While I would appreciate an ID, I would more appreciate a clue as to what I should have seen here that enabled you to make the call.

napki

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Re: Another Soter Megas mint question
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2009, 07:15:16 pm »
Most likely answer Mr. Mitchiner wrong on this like most other sections of book. ACW very much outdated. Why outdated book sell for $500? Ask Mr. Barnum.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Another Soter Megas mint question
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 07:48:55 pm »
As I understand your reply, Mitchiner is wrong by definition but there is nothing available that is right?  Are you then saying that the entire concept of these coins being separated into mints based on letter form or any other characteristic is incorrect?   Mitchiner also placed significance in the number of rays (for dating???).  Do you see any significance in these rays?   What can be said about these coins other than they were associated with Soter Megas?

napki

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Re: Another Soter Megas mint question
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 08:34:32 pm »
Dating by rays make sense, I think, but probably litle solid to back it up. I remember I see the previous thread where square v round letters end up to seem arbitrary. From areas I know well such as Hun coins Mitchiner in many cases just plain wrong as any work 30 years old but in some cases he compound lack of knowledge by bad methodology. Understand, he try hard but his task overwhelming and beyond scope of one man. Like many, Mr. Mitchiner want very badly to fill every void he find. This not poking Lincoln pennies into album, as Mr. Steve Album once tell me when I question him on Kushan dates. All very theoretical at best. Very little really known about Kushans or their coins. Only since 1992 do we know identity of Soter Megas from new inscription found. I hope I make sense here (not always my case!)  :)

tkmallon

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Re: Another Soter Megas mint question
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 11:08:33 pm »
While I agree that Mitchiner's ACW has many problems, let's cut him some slack -- 700+ pages listing 5,500+ coins in 1978 (when most of these belonged to completely obscure series) is quite remarkable.  It's surprising there isn't more mistakes.  On Soter Megas: I think I posted the following before (maybe not here; I can't remember) but: as far as I know, I've never seen any hoard or other evidence suggesting mint location.  I have no idea how Mitchiner separated his types into neighborhoods.  Maybe there was anecdotal evidence from finders, locals, dealers, etc.  In a large group of Soter Megas drachms I've seen, c. 70 coins, it looked to me that there was 70 engravers at workComplete disparity.  "Dating by rays" means, I suppose, that the coins with more rays are earlier because, in general, they are better engraved.  I agree it's intelligent to separate the coins by style, tamgha, number of rays, type of letterforms, etc., but I can't think of any study that suggests mint location.  tom

napki

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Re: Another Soter Megas mint question
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2009, 11:17:27 pm »
While I agree that Mitchiner's ACW has many problems, let's cut him some slack -- 700+ pages listing 5,500+ coins in 1978 (when most of these belonged to completely obscure series) is quite remarkable. 

This what I try to say in previous post, perhaps not so fluent (my English). Still, anything one read there should be confirmed with the more recent specialist work.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Another Soter Megas mint question
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2009, 01:53:55 pm »
but I can't think of any study that suggests mint location.  tom

I'm a beginner in Eastern coins but undoubtedly brought to the table prejudices from other coins I've experienced.  Maybe part of the appeal of Soter Megas to me is a parallel I see to my main interest, the denarii of Septimius Severus.  We of the Severan persuasion refer to Eastern mints at Alexandria, Laodicea and Emesa.  Of these, the last is most frequently listed in quotation marks because we now tend to dismiss the mint locations of the Syrian mints and, to a degree, question their number and separation.  Still, because of the Gospel known as RIC (Mattingly/Sydenham, 1936) coins are cataloged according to that separation.  Alexandria is a bit different because the artistic style of the denarii screams out a relation to the tetradrachms of that city.  Certainly it is possible that engravers were transferred from Alexandria to somewhere else but, for the time being, it seems reasonable to use that name to identify those coins.  What is now called Emesa and Laodicea was once termed Antioch based to some degree on that city being very significant in the region (rather like Taxila) but I've never been convinced that the hands that cut denarius dies and those that did local issues were related.  Someday, someone will sort out the Severan mess and we will start throwing around a new name or three.   What is significant is not where the mint was located but whether there was a system of branch mints and whether we have any hope of separating them into A, B or C.  I tend to agree with the 70 engravers comment even though I have only handled about 70 SM coins.  It appears that dies were produced by cutters on death row and no one lasted more than a die or two.  The evidence I see suggests there were two denominations and each exists in a range of ray counts and styles.  The idea of dating by a countdown is hard to swallow (I understand how you add a ray each year but what did they plan to do if SM outlasted the rays (perhaps there was a calendar like the Mayans  ending in 2012?)?  The square letterform matter is hard for me since 7/8 of the coins have few enough letters that it is hard to compare.  Does anyone have examples of die matched coins from the series?  Some of the 'square' letters do seem to be larger and more ragged to me but square isn't the word I'd use. 

I've been advised to check the more recent works but I find nothing online including suggestions of books to seek.  The Mitchiner book has a special place in my heart because of all the photos (I like books with photos) and the fact that it is what I 'bought' with the ridiculous number of 'Geopoints' I had built up when my coin site was hosted by Geocities.  Yahoo bought Geocities, canceled the program and told all of us we had to spend the points or lose them.  Mitchiner was the only ancient coin book on their list right then that I did not already have so I bought it (for no cash but a lot of Geopoints).  Certainly it has faults but you don't have to be perfect (ask RIC) just a step ahead of the competition.   One thing I got from looking over Tom's site is a feeling that Kushan is far from the most obscure coinage available to collectors. 

Thanks for the replies.

napki

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Re: Another Soter Megas mint question
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2009, 04:39:44 pm »

I've been advised to check the more recent works but I find nothing online including suggestions of books to seek. 


Since Kushan history is known largely from coins (also inscriptions, Chinese chronicles etc), I suggest to find scholarly works on Kushan studies which will often read like numismatic text. Mr. Joe Cribb of British Museum and Mr. Nicholas Sims-Williams of University of London both publish related articles. Also see bibliography on Mr. Mallon website. Bibliography on wikipedia Kushan article useful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan as is website http://kushan.org/. Many coins and expert forum can be found at http://zeno.ru/. Some collectors-oriented books on Kushan coins have been published in India in the recent years but few I have seen are unfortunately of the little value. Use Mitchiner to put reference number on the coin but rely on modern scholarship for attribution and dating. I hope I am help.


 

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