Share your coins with divots/dimples in center...

[Noah]

Although the reason for the divots/dimples in certain coins is up for intense debate still, the fact is that there are many of these specimens out there.  I am interested in seeing examples owned by FORVM members or in musuem collections.  I will start this thread by contributing my only example.  This is my Diadumenian:

Diadumenian as Caesar AE25
Attribution: SNG Bulgaria 162, Varbanov 1871, Moushmov 3561; Deultum, Thrace

[Potator II]

Hi Noah,

I have one coin for Macrinus, strangely enough , with two centering pits (or whatever you call them)

Bronze struck in Nicopolis
AVT KM .... H MAKRINOC, Laureate and cuirassed bust of Macrinus right
V M AGRIPPA NIKOPOLITWNPROC IC TR, Tyche standing left, holding cornucopia and rudder
14.26 gr
Ref : ANMG #1710

Regards
Potator

[mix_val]

These are two great looking coins!  Got to be fairly rare too.

[Ghengis Jon]

A Severus provincial.

Has there ever been a survey to see which coin (Provincial vs non-Provincial) has the greater frequency of "divots" during any given time frame?

[Bacchus]

I'll post my version of the Diadumenian (not as nice as Noah's though) for the simple reason that it proves that the divet is in the blank and has nothing to do with the actual striking process --- same dies / different position

MAlcolm

[Noah]

Thanks for the great examples! Genghis_Jon, maybe you could start a thread on the topic of most frequently "divoted" coins.

Best, Noah

[PeterD]

Here's my best coin with divots. In fact you could say I'm divoted to it!

Moesia Inferior -Marcianopolis
Macrinus and Diadumenian, AE Pentassarion
Laureate head of Macrinus on the right, facing left, with bare head of Diadumenian on the right, facing left. (Greek)
City goddess, with mural crown, standing holding patera in right hand, staff in left. "E"  to centre left. (Greek)
AMNG 758

[Enodia]

Here's my best coin with divots. In fact you could say I'm divoted to it!

oh brother! 

this is the only one i have, a bronze from Soloi in Cilicia (3rd-2nd century BC)...

~Peter

[Rugser]

I never has seen other   Roman coin  with beginning of a hole.
This is my one

Roman Rpublic
Quadrigatus ; c. 217 BC
Obv. Janiform head of the Dioscuri.
Rev. Jupiter in a quadriga, right, driven by Victory.
Æ 18 ;   5.46 g.
RRC 31-34
Beginning of a hole in the centre of the obverse. A very late piece, very debased

Your opinion is greatly appreciated

ser

[casata137ec]

I have a ton of large provincials with the "centering marks", but since there seems to be a growing sub-theme of Diadumenium w/Artemis reverses... 

Chris

Nicopolis ad Istrum mint, Diadumenian Four Assaria, A.D. AE, 26mm 11.15g, Moushmov 1302, AMNG I, 1842

[aj]

Very early in my collecting and I have three coins with such holes all of which need proper IDing but they are Roman provincial.
My simple theory is that these coins were struck hot rather than cold struck.

[slokind]

I have nearly 1500 coins keyworded 'provincial' meaning, in my collection, Greek Imperial.  More than half of them are over 21cm diameter, and I'd guess that I have nearly 1000 that are tetrassaria or pentassaria and brass.  Only a few of them have the 'dimples' filled in, and a few of them have spectacularly deep and complex 'dimples'.  Doug Smith shows a couple such on his web page, but if I run across one of mine I'll post it.
Pat L.
Here's one with a conical point rising in the center: caused by some sort of turning device; these are not uncommon.
• 02 09 03 AE 27  11.21g  Axis 1:00  Marcianopolis.  Issued by Gallus.  Septimius Severus, laureate, draped bust to r.  AV K L SEP      SE[VEROS P].  Rev., Tyche in kalathos, with cornucopiae and rudder, stg. to l.  [V A]V GALLOV MARK    IANOPOLI[TON (the division of the ethnic deviating from the die described).  Pick, AMNG I, 1, p. 201, no. 559, citing 8 exs. and noting break in ethnic MA   or MAR , to which add this one, MARK .

And here's one with two exceptionally deep dimples
• 14 02 03 AE 25  Hadrianopolis.  Gordian III, laureate, draped bust to r.  AVT K M ANT    GORDIANOS AVG (3-letter ligature).  Rev., the Tyche of Adrianople, in kalathos, draped around the shoulders similarly to that of Antioch, seated with crossed legs to l., regardant, on rock,  holding poppy pod and grain ears in her r. hand and leaning on her l. which rests on the rock.  Above that hand, cornucopiae.  At her feet, water and river god swimming to l.  ADRIANOPO    L    EI    TON (3-letter ligature).  Jurukova 516, var. (cited in Lanz 80, May, 1997, no. 553).  Varbanov III, p. 196, no. 2316, illus < Lanz).  The river is the Tonzos or the Hebrus, at the confluence of which Hadrianopolis was situated; it is the Hebrus that reaches the sea.

[Noah]

It is interesting that with so many thousands of coins out there with these 'dimples' that a clear cause of this effect is unknown.  I am not sure if the following question can be answered, but here it goes.  Is there absolutely no documentation from ancient times regarding the 'dimpling' effect? 

Best, Noah               

[slokind]

What we can do is eliminate the theories that some, most, or all of the specimens miltate against.
(1) on any kind of a lathe, you usually have a sharp, conical pin that holds the object being turned; such a conical pin, if it went deep enough into the object, shows up as a conical peak on the finished product.  As I said, Doug Smith has one of the best ones, and I posted one of mine (the Septimius).
(2) only some kind of turning device can leave concentric rings around the 'dimple'.  Usually these were obliterated by the dies, but several dozen (at least) good examples survive.  Again, see Doug Smith's page.
I do have an image of one, but I didn't post it yesterday because it's a coin I traded away for other reasons (it is signed by Agrippa at Marcianopolis; Agrippa usually employed the Nicopolis mint).  But I'm sure it's OK to post the image here for its concentric circles on the obverse; some other examples are more extreme.
Certainly, none of our textual sources describes the preparation of flans.  We do have the objects and our general knowledge of certain kinds of various machines adaptable for varied applications that ancients knew.  A close reading of Vitruvius is useful.  The coins themselves, for example, the squarish Rome aes of the 3rd century CE, give us irrefutable clues so far as they go; the evidence must never be pushed beyond what it actually entails.
The Greek Imperial aes with 'dimples' preclude theories that do not involve some kind of rotary finishing device used before striking.  Of course, they preclude anything not done deliberately and for several generations.
• 02 12 02 AE 26 Marcianopolis.  Issued by Agrippa.  Confronted heads of Macrinus to r., laureate, and Diadumenian, bareheaded, to l.  Obv. legend evidently (though worn) AV K OPEL SEV MAKREINOS K M OPEL ANTONEINOS (no K at 6:00).  Rev., Hermes with money bags in his r., with chlamys (as Hermes Belvedere, et al.) around his l. forearm, holding kerykeion, facing l.  VP AGRI[PPA MARK]IANOPOLEITON (the omega-nu ligate); below the money bag, E (not lunate).  Not in AMNG I, 1, but cf. p. 249, no. 785.
Pat L.
The only reason I use the word 'dimples' is its inappropriateness: it cannot be held to favor one theory or another.
P.S. Here is a clearer one, of Caracalla at Pautalia, which I also traded (I never sell, but I do trade with friends), so it's no longer mine, only the image for the concentric rings.

[wandigeaux]

All of the coins illustrated above, with one exception, come from Moesia and Thrace, but such dimples were exceedingly common on Ptolemaic AE issues (the big bronzes).  Here is an example from Lydia for Commodus.  Could the presence of the dimple have had a (secondary) meaning in distinguishing denominations (at least in the Balkans), in that the dimple is associated with brass, and not copper (if this is the case).  Best, George Spradling

Commodus, AE32, 19.66g, Lydia, Germe; Wad. 800=SNGfr 978 (same dies as my example); Lindgren III A463a

AVTOK MAV KOMODOC

EP_ IEPMOLAOV ARX_ GEPMHNON

[Steve Minnoch]

Could the presence of the dimple have had a (secondary) meaning in distinguishing denominations (at least in the Balkans), in that the dimple is associated with brass, and not copper (if this is the case).  Best, George Spradling

It seems a bit too random and subtle to be a mark of denomination.  Why not mark the die?
Is there a correlation between these marks and brass?  If so, the first question I'd ask is whether that was due to some metallurgical property.

Steve

[wandigeaux]

Well, I did say it was a secondary consideration...  Some metallurgical property (of the die or the flan) seems more plausible, but then why not have dimples throughout ancient coinage?
While I'm at it, let me ask if these dimples are, indeed, found on copper coins?   I have often wondered about this (I have never seen any). 
I do not think we are going to solve this puzzle, absent the discovery of the apparatus used in making these pits.  Meanwhile, let speculation reign!  George S.

[slokind]

Unless possibly at Topiros, on a medium size coin, which I'm unwilling to scratch, I do not know of any Danubian small coins of the kind ranging from about 14 to about 19 mm that have dimples.  The small ones that show metal also are copper.  At most mints they are often irregular in shape.  I have concluded that the smaller denominations are coppers (of course, there may be exceptions that I haven't seen) and and that copper at that scale could be struck without further preparation of a flan.  Of course, copper could be similarly prepared and for the large Ptolemaic aes it was.
Caley, I recall, mentioned small coins at Nicaea where brass and copper both were used within the same issue.  Bronze in Asia Minor is often plainly dissimilar to Rome brass, the farther from Pontos the more so.
I don't have enough Ptolemaic to have formed any opinions, but Doug Smith does discuss them along with the Danubian ones.
I don't recall right now Pick's mentioning techniques of manufacture in that connection, but he did discuss the relation of Moesia Inferior at some mints to Pontic and (I might guess from the Lydian coin posted above???) the rest of NW Asia Minor.
Pat L.

[Jochen]

Hi!

I think we shouldn't use the terms centration, centering or similar terms in this context. The dimples are not central, often very excentric. Some of these coins have an extra conical peak located centrally of the struck devices. These peaks came from a small hole in the die (before striking the flan) to make a circle with something like a compass for the correct location of the legend. The first pic shows the excentric dimple and the central peak (between the noses).

Like most of all collectors of Greek Imperial coins I'm very interested in these dimples. Browsing through my collection I have found only 2 types from Nicomedia and from Troizen showing this phenomena. All other are from Moesia and Thracia. This should be explained.

Looking more closely to the dimples we can soo distinguish between different shapes. Doug and Pat have shown two kinds: The 1st one simply conical shaped, another one with a small central peak on the ground. But there are several more. Most dimples are conical. But some are shallow with patterns on the ground. Here I have some examples with different patterns:
1) a shallow one with a star-like pattern on the ground, AMNG 1999(av) rev.
2) a shallow one with a snake-like patern on the ground, AMNG 1712 obv.
3) shallow one with a cross on the ground, AMNG 1830 obv.
4) a shallow one with 2, 3, or 4 dots on the ground
5) a shallow one with circle of dots on the ground
6) a shallow one with irregular arranged dots
I think there must be more patterns. I have attached examples of the first three patterns.

I think these patterns are used to fix the hypothetical smoothing instrument better to the ground. They were needed especially in shallow dimples.

Best regards

[wandigeaux]

A very quick look at coins in my collection for which I have retained images (very few) shows such dimples (agreed: not centration!) on coins from Troizen and from Phrygia.  I have lost the image, but I have Lindgren's plate coin (Lindgren I 1688) of Severus from Pessinus in Galatia which shows a nice dimple on the reverse.  Apparently, these things could pop up like the pox almost anywhere, even if very sporadically.  George S.

S.Severus,  AE24 Peloponnesus, Troizen (the BCD specimen, 1343, otherwise unpublished?)

Maximinus and Maximus Caesar. AE29 (10.95g), Phrygia, Bruzus, unpublished?

[moonmoth]

So far, coins have been shown from:

Markianopolis and Nikopolis in Lower Moesia;
Deultum and Hadrianopolis in Thrace;
Soloi in Cilicia;
Roman Republic;
Germe in Lydia;
Troizen in Peloponnesos;
Bruzus in Phrygia

And there have been mentions of Ptolemaic bronzes and Pessinus in Galatia.

As well as a few of the above places, I have dimpled specimens from:

Amphipolis in Macedonia;
Viminacium in Upper Moesia;
Tomis in Lower Moesia;
Odessos and Mesembria in Thrace;
Antioch in Pisidia;
Perga in Pamphylia.

They are all large coins.  Some of my specimens are pretty scrappy, but I like these: an AE24 of Philip II Caesar from Perga with three purses on a prize chest, with a large oval dimple; and an AE31 of Julia Domna from Antioch in Pisidia with a classic Men reverse, with a small round dimple.  (Click to enlarge.)

Bill

[Arminius]

Something dimpled and very colourful from Augusta Traiana:



Caracalla, 197-217 AD.,
4 Assaria / Æ29 (29-30 mm / 17,44 g),
Obv.: AVT K M AYP - ANTΩNЄINOC , laureate head of Caracalla right.
Rev.: AVΓOUC - THC TRAIANHC , river god reclining left before hill with city walls and 3 towers on its top, holding a plant, resting on a jug from which river waters flow.
Schönert-Geiss - (V 104 / R - ) ; Moushmov 3069 .

[areich]

I have an AE24 from Topiros:



an AE30 from Heraclea Pontica:



an AE31 from Philippopolis:



an AE30 from Serdika:



an AE25 from Tium:



an AE24 from Deultum



an AE29 from Samos



And a few more 'exotic' large coins that don't show any, from Seleucia ad Calycadnum, Rabbathmoba, Hadrianotherai, Laodikeia ad Lycum, Perge, Antiochia ad Orontem (that one's not exotic), Ninica-Claudiopolis and Prusias ad Hypium.
But I have just one or two from these cities so it doesn't say much.

Andreas

[Noah]

Thanks for all of the examples shown.  Thanks to Bill for tallying up everything so we can see the locations of the coins shown in this thread.

Best, Noah

[Jochen]

Here is an additional series of cities where I found dimples in my collection:
Anazarbos
Anchialos
Byzantium
Bizya
Dionysopolis
Kallatis
Nikopolis ad Nestum
Pautalia
Perinthos
Stobi
Thessalonica
Trajanopolis
Tyana

Best regards