Hephthalite c/m question

[dougsmit]

All I know about this one is from (where else?):
http://www.grifterrec.com/coins/huns/huns.html  second coin

I have trouble seeing the head in either coin's countermark.  On mine, imagination almost gives a facing head in a diamond but the posted (and better) example looks head right.  Does anyone have a more clear example?  What is the legend in that c/m?

The reverse c/m is read Phoro (or Foro) depending on source.  What does that signify?  Does anyone care to comment on the significance of any of the three c/m's?

Suggestions for other places to look for information would be appreciated.

Yesterday I attempted to post a longer version of this query but it locked up on posting.  Apologies if it turns up and this is duplicate. 

[wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)]

I certainly hope somebody can answer these questions, as I have one of these coins myself.  I would especially like to  know the reading of the textual countermark (mine shows this a little better)!  As to the head, I "read" the circle with the squiggle beneath as an ear with large earring, the dots to the right being facial features.  The head is in an incuse square.  On mine, the head faces left, or, better, towards the center of the obverse (as does yours, and as probably do they all).  As to the text, I have seen it read as oforo, once as "Rome [!?]," Sogdian (not like any Sogdian characters I have seeen), Turkic (not unlikely), or Kushan.  I have no idea as to whether it reads right to left or vice versa.  Another coin on the Hephthalite site shows a different version of the textual countermark.  The attribution to Balkh and the Hephthalites is the dealer's. Cheers, George Spradling

[dougsmit]

Thanks!  This is a bit far out but the olo o p o is readable left to right as Greek "for tribute" if you accept the first slightly separated marks as a phi.  Perhaps the coin was struck from silver paid in tribute?  After you point it out, I see the head left but was reading the earring as a legend in the c/m.  This is a case of trying to make something harder than it is.   Your better strike of this c/m makes this reading attractive with no real expectation of it being correct. 

Considering that we know almost nothing about the people who issued this coin, perhaps we should not be too surprised that we have a lot of question marks on our attributions of their coins.

[wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)]

Here, from the same dealer as my example, is a very good close up of the obverse countermark(from two other coins).  He had three, each for the price of an inexpensive lunch!  I only got one: I sure can  be a cheap s.o.b.  Geo. S

[slokind]

If that o o o o can be read  , then it would be the accusative case of phoros, and the Hellenistic meaning for that word is indeed 'tribute'.  In modern Greek it means taxes or tariffs of any kind, usually for resident American archaeologists what you have to pay at customs if people insist on sending you Xmas gifts!
Pat L.

[wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)]

The Sassanians certainly had frequent occasion to pay bribes, tribute, and ransom (Peroz!) to the Hephthalites, who seemed to have played much the same role in relation to the Sassanian Empire as the Goths did to the Romans (as both enemy and ally, sometimes simultaneously).  It is interesting that some form of Greekmay have served as an administrative language in those parts as late as this (6th-7th c., if the host coin is one of Hormazd IV -- I know virtually nothing about Sassanian numismatics).  It may be that the inscription is in Bactrian (which used a version of the Greek alphabet), and "foro" could be a loan word from the Greek!  Geo.S.

[dougsmit]

Also knowing nothing about Sassanian:
If this coin is an imitation of Hormazd IV rather than an actual issue of his, we have to deal with the possibility that there was some time elapse between the issue and the dates of the original.  The dates of the countermarks add another layer to the question including the possibility that not all were applied at the same time.  The tribute could even have been being paid from the Hepthalites to the Sassanians or a third party from what I know of the politics of the region for the years between Hormazd and the Islamic conquests. 

For the time being we must be content to enjoy the dream of increasing understanding in the future.  This might not be too hard when you consider that we now know so little. 

[wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)]

Fun, isn't it!  Geo. S.

[tkmallon]

Dear Doug, George and Pat:

Back in 2005, I posted the FORO=tax, tribute idea within a thread on SASAN-L on the FROMO KESARO coins, and again in 2006 on Sogdian-L.  I’m afraid it’s quite a complex issue.  One important question is whether the countermarks “FORO” and “FOR” (and there are several variants) are directly related to “FOROMO” and/or “FROMO” -- or merely coincidence. 

Over the years, I have added to several dozen pages of notes and, in 2006, put together a photo file of all known examples of the FROMO KESARO types – including the countermarked-legend examples (many unpublished).  I may be able to make a brief outline of types and a summary of my findings with some images given a few days or so.

In the meantime: Doug, your coin is one of the few of these Hormazd IV imitations I've seen with a secondary obverse countermark (Gobl KM14) and is important for the dating (in my opinion, mid-to-late 7th century).

Tom Mallon-McCorgray

[dougsmit]

The part of this that starts to get funny is that I did not realize the c/m was supposed to be Greek and though the suggestion was "a bit far out" having missed any listing suggestion.  Since my lack of knowledge is being aired, I'll go on and ask what is meant by Fromo Kesaro (Caesar?) and how that is related to Foromo (is there expectation for letter dropping from other texts of the period?). 

Am I stretching the truth by expecting a Foro to be limited to a tax brought in from outside sources (like we in the US see in states with sales taxes paid mostly by tourists in Nevada or Florida as opposed to real estate taxes collected internally)?  That returns to the question of why a c/m in Balkh is done in Greek letters and whether the tribute was incoming or outgoing (to or from what people).  The obvious answer would be Sassanians but that returns to the 'why Greek?' matter. 

The statement that not all coins have the additional obverse c/m (not to be read as an omega, I presume, and not a crescent either) suggests not all c/m's were applied in one sitting.  The original listing of the coin also stated that the base coin was an imitation bringing up the question of whether we have this style/die coin completely free of countermarks or with only the head or only the FORO. 

This is a lot of questions from one low end coin from ebay. 

[wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)]

The third countermark seems to be somebody's or something's tamga (of course, I haven't the slightest idea whose, but I suspect Tom does).  A search of Wikipedia under Kushan Empire revealed the existence of the Bactrian Rabatek Inscription (mentioned in the notes section) in which Kanishka announces, among other things, that the official languange of his realm was to be no longer Greek, but Bactrian.  Bactrian orthography is based on the Greek alphabet, with a few special letters, most interesting here the one for /sh/ ("sho"), very frequent on Kushan coinage, and written exactly like the second symbol in the "phoro" countermark.  It could be possible, then, that the countermark should be read as "oshoro," and the resemblance to a Greek word mere happenstance.  Sheer speculation, of course, but it is free.  Oh, to be living less than a mile from a major research library again!  George S.

[wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)]

As we speak, David L. Tranbarger has a coin such as ours, as far as I can tell, offered under the rubric "Western Turks, Phromo Kesaro?"  The coin is dated "year 11 (AD 589) -- a frozen date, with the coin being minted  no earlier than the second half of the 7th c., with the countermarks dating to ca. mid 8th c.  Phromo Kesaro ("Caesar of Rome") reigned ca. 739-745.  He gives a reference to Schnadelback, ONS. p. 3, fig. 4 (whatever that is).  Perhaps he will chance on this thread?  Obviously, a lot of gaps in our understanding!  Geo.S.

[Howard Cole]

ONS is the Oriental Numismatic Society.  This reference is to a supplement of their newsletter/journal.  I may have a copy of it around here but I still have not got around to organizing my references since my move.

[dougsmit]

I'm adding one more coin I picked up because I wanted a legible FORO lacking in my first coin.  The host coin seems to be a bit double struck making it hard to read.  I see year 13 but would appreciate any other suggestions.  My question remains as to whether the coins were outgoing or incoming tribute.  Who was paying whom? 

[napki]

Coins believed all from single hoard. I think year 13 is surely blundered 11. Year 11 highly symbolic date - year in which Turks take Balkh from Hormazd IV. Host coins local imitation many years later, date froze. These published in Oriental Numismatic Society Newsletter 169. Sometimes I see example with only FORO but not head; I never see head only. Therefore countermarks strucked at different times. First FORO, later head. Not much else known. Turks were allies of Sasanian and together destroy Hephthalites in 565. In 589, Turks occupy Balkh. In VIII century Turk ruler "Fromo Kesaro" ally of Byzantine against Arabs; given title "Caesar of Rome" like other Byzantine client kings. Other answer for c/m maybe more likely than Fromo Kesaro as suggested before but nobody know with certain.