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Author Topic: Constantinus I VIRTVS EXERCIT maybe NOTINRIC  (Read 2373 times)

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Offline Nikko

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Constantinus I VIRTVS EXERCIT maybe NOTINRIC
« on: September 07, 2008, 07:39:33 am »
Hello  :)
i'm a new user and i need your help.
Some weeks ago i bought in Barcelona this interesting coin:
O// CONSTAN-TINVS AVG
R// VIRTVS EXERCIT
PTR (?) in exergue
T F in fields
This coin should be RIC VII Trier 279 var (PTR instead of dot PTR) but, aboveall, the bust is a D6 (hemated, laureated) while on RIc is reported only with D2 bust (helmeted and NOT laureated).
Some people think that this coin is an contemporary imitation ("barbaric", "irregular", "unofficial") others think it's a real NOTINRIC...another one thinks it's a modern fake.....
I'm really confused....PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!!!
Many thanks and best regards.
Nicola

PS images arn't photos and in the hands the coin is much better
Scribendi recte sapere est principium et fons

Offline Rich Beale

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Re: Constantinus I VIRTVS EXERCIT maybe NOTINRIC
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2008, 08:43:22 am »
The style certainly does not look like that of Trier. Also doesn't look crude enough to be what one would consider 'barbaric'. I suspect a contemporary imitation.

Offline Nikko

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Re: Constantinus I VIRTVS EXERCIT maybe NOTINRIC
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2008, 09:06:44 am »
Hello Trajan and thank you for your help.
What means exacltly "contemporary imitation?
Scribendi recte sapere est principium et fons

Offline areich

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Re: Constantinus I VIRTVS EXERCIT maybe NOTINRIC
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2008, 09:30:41 am »
Contemporary imitation means ancient, not modern.

Andreas
Andreas Reich

Offline Rich Beale

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Re: Constantinus I VIRTVS EXERCIT maybe NOTINRIC
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2008, 10:12:39 am »
Sorry, should have been more specific. I think it is an ancient forgery, i.e. minted by some unscrupulous individual for profit.

Offline Nikko

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Re: Constantinus I VIRTVS EXERCIT maybe NOTINRIC
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2008, 10:22:02 am »
Now is clear...thank you!!!!!
Scribendi recte sapere est principium et fons

khingila

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Re: Constantinus I VIRTVS EXERCIT maybe NOTINRIC
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2008, 10:41:56 am »
Quote from: Trajan on September 07, 2008, 08:43:22 am
The style certainly does not look like that of Trier. Also doesn't look crude enough to be what one would consider 'barbaric'. I suspect a contemporary imitation.
In the context of 4th century Roman bronzes, "barbarous", "unofficial", "imitation" and "counterfeit" are entirely synonymous.

Offline Rich Beale

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Re: Constantinus I VIRTVS EXERCIT maybe NOTINRIC
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2008, 10:58:24 am »
In the context of 4th century Roman bronzes, "barbarous", "unofficial", "imitation" and "counterfeit" are entirely synonymous.

I disagree. There are some issues which quite clearly have been produced by the so-called 'barbarian races', and others which are more easily ascribed to counterfeit mints within the empire. This divide can be quite easily seen as far back as the mid-late republic.

khingila

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Re: Constantinus I VIRTVS EXERCIT maybe NOTINRIC
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2008, 11:57:26 am »
Quote from: Trajan on September 07, 2008, 10:58:24 am
In the context of 4th century Roman bronzes, "barbarous", "unofficial", "imitation" and "counterfeit" are entirely synonymous.

I disagree. There are some issues which quite clearly have been produced by the so-called 'barbarian races', and others which are more easily ascribed to counterfeit mints within the empire. This divide can be quite easily seen as far back as the mid-late republic.

I would be very grateful if you would supply references for the assertion that "barbarian races" outside the empire were producing imitations of 4th century Roman coins. The consensus of scholars (Boon, Bastien, etc) beginning in the 1960s has been that the 4th-century imitations are all "contemporary counterfeits". To my knowledge, there is no evidence that the northern barbarians at this period were in the habit of using coined money of any kind.

The only plausible exception of which I am aware are the Taman imitations which may or may not have seen use into the 4th century. But those are an isolated case in the Crimea, and in any event imitate a 2nd-century prototype.

Offline Rich Beale

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Re: Constantinus I VIRTVS EXERCIT maybe NOTINRIC
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2008, 12:32:23 pm »
Alas, I can't supply any proper references as I am nowhere near my (or any other, for that matter) library. However, by my perception, it is self-evident and common sense. Though barbarian nations did not use coined money in their own internal economies or even necessarily for trade between themselves, the inter-civilisation trade that would have occured between the Germanic foederati peoples (and even non-Roman aligned tribes) and the Empire would have occasionally necessitated or been facilitated by coined money, whether that be via official coinage, or self-produced coinage intended to either deceive or act in lieu of said official coinage.

To my knowledge, there is no evidence that the northern barbarians at this period were in the habit of using coined money of any kind.

There is in fact literary evidence to support the usage of Roman coinage in 'barbarian' lands as early as the 1st Century AD.

Tacitus - 'Germania':
The Germans however adjoining to our frontiers value gold and silver for the purposes of commerce, and are wont to distinguish and prefer certain of our coins. They who live more remote are more primitive and simple in their dealings, and exchange one commodity for another. The money which they like is the old and long known, that indented, or that impressed with a chariot and two horses. Silver too is what they seek more than gold, from no fondness or preference, but because small pieces are more ready in purchasing things cheap and common.

Victor Clark asserts:
So the Germanic people were quite used to using Roman money by the fourth century. Since these coins are struck, this would also mean that there were ‘mints’ that produced these ‘barbarous’ coins. Bastien even admitted that these coins came from “well organized work-shops.”5 This level of organization coupled with the designs seems to indicate 'barbarous' origins for these coins. If these coins were not minted by foederati in Roman territory or 'barbarians' across the borders, how long would an organized mint producing counterfeits in an area under Roman control have lasted? Counterfeiting was a crime that Rome did not look upon kindly.

For my part, and from professional experience of dealing with a good number of ancient counterfeits, there is a great stylistic difference that can only be explained by varying cultural perceptions. Coins which bear only vague resemblance to the type they are intended to copy, with botched and/or nonsensical legends are to my mind quite clearly produced by people with little to no knowledge of Latin, and possessing little familiarity with the fairly common devices and designs. To a barbarian eye, time-honoured Roman reverses would still appear as nothing more than decoration to be (largely inaccurately) copied.


khingila

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Re: Constantinus I VIRTVS EXERCIT maybe NOTINRIC
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2008, 09:23:54 pm »
Quote from: Trajan on September 07, 2008, 12:32:23 pm
Alas, I can't supply any proper references as I am nowhere near my (or any other, for that matter) library. However, by my perception, it is self-evident and common sense. Though barbarian nations did not use coined money in their own internal economies or even necessarily for trade between themselves, the inter-civilisation trade that would have occured between the Germanic foederati peoples (and even non-Roman aligned tribes) and the Empire would have occasionally necessitated or been facilitated by coined money, whether that be via official coinage, or self-produced coinage intended to either deceive or act in lieu of said official coinage.

To my knowledge, there is no evidence that the northern barbarians at this period were in the habit of using coined money of any kind.

There is in fact literary evidence to support the usage of Roman coinage in 'barbarian' lands as early as the 1st Century AD.

Tacitus - 'Germania':
The Germans however adjoining to our frontiers value gold and silver for the purposes of commerce, and are wont to distinguish and prefer certain of our coins. They who live more remote are more primitive and simple in their dealings, and exchange one commodity for another. The money which they like is the old and long known, that indented, or that impressed with a chariot and two horses. Silver too is what they seek more than gold, from no fondness or preference, but because small pieces are more ready in purchasing things cheap and common.

Victor Clark asserts:
So the Germanic people were quite used to using Roman money by the fourth century. Since these coins are struck, this would also mean that there were ‘mints’ that produced these ‘barbarous’ coins. Bastien even admitted that these coins came from “well organized work-shops.”5 This level of organization coupled with the designs seems to indicate 'barbarous' origins for these coins. If these coins were not minted by foederati in Roman territory or 'barbarians' across the borders, how long would an organized mint producing counterfeits in an area under Roman control have lasted? Counterfeiting was a crime that Rome did not look upon kindly.

For my part, and from professional experience of dealing with a good number of ancient counterfeits, there is a great stylistic difference that can only be explained by varying cultural perceptions. Coins which bear only vague resemblance to the type they are intended to copy, with botched and/or nonsensical legends are to my mind quite clearly produced by people with little to no knowledge of Latin, and possessing little familiarity with the fairly common devices and designs. To a barbarian eye, time-honoured Roman reverses would still appear as nothing more than decoration to be (largely inaccurately) copied.



I'm not certain that the observations of Tacitus concerning the Germans of the first century are of much value with regard to economic conditions in the fourth century. One must be very cautions drawing conclusions based on style. Hill and other eminent numismatists of the last century imagined stylistic similarities between the barbarous radiates and medieval sceattas, and so declared certain barbarous radiate types to be the Dark Ages coinage of "Hengist and Horst with their Jutes". Hill considered his conclusions to be "self-evident" and "common-sense". In fact, it was pure fantasy. We know today of course that the barbarous radiates, no matter how "barbarous", were all contemporary with their prototypes and confined to the third century, hundreds of years before the Saxon invasion. If we apply Occam's razor to the stylistic argument, the simplest and thus most likely explanation is that the individuals engraving the dies were often only semi-skilled and/or semi-literate. As these counterfeit epidemics raged, good coin was driven out of circulation by the bad. The imitations were often copies of copies of copies, produced in the more far-flung provinces where knowledge of Latin may have been limited and imperial authority often weak if not altogether absent. It should be no surprise then that legends become garbled and types confused or reduced. These waves of epidemic counterfeiting were spawned by acute shortages of good official coinage and were sometimes tolerated until the supply of good official coin was renewed. The economic forces which produced these waves of epidemic counterfeiting in the 4th century were well documented by Bastien in his seminal work on the subject. The fact that that some of these counterfeits must have been produced in "well-organized workshops" only suggests that it was a profitable and tightly controlled enterprise. Granted, I have not followed new developments in this area as closely over the last few years as I did when I was actively collecting. If anyone is familiar with recent work which contradicts Bastien's analysis, please feel feel to share.

Offline Diederik

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Re: Constantinus I VIRTVS EXERCIT maybe NOTINRIC
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2008, 05:31:02 am »
North of the 'Limes'the Roman frontier, lay Germania Libera, occupied by 'barbarians'in the eyes of the Romans. They certainly used Roman coins from the first, well into the fourth century. But, more importantly, no coins were produced there. The only bulk of 'apparently non official' coins was probably minted in or around Trier. The Victoriae Laetae coins occur very frequently in a crude style with altar variations not shown on 'official' coinage.
So, yes there were coins, no they were not minted outside the empire.


Frans

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Constantinus I VIRTVS EXERCIT maybe NOTINRIC
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2008, 01:32:20 pm »
I've never seen any evidence that any of these were produced outside the empire, with a few specific exceptions like the Indian imitations. There's a lot of variation, with some coins being difficult to distinguish from official examples, and others being really crude. Some of the third-century ones are cast, and completely non-Roman in style.
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