Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Attributes of Greek River Gods  (Read 42716 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Attributes of Greek River Gods
« on: July 18, 2008, 08:20:21 pm »
ISTROS GUARANTEED GENUINE, complete with the eagle and dolphin.
This came today, and my attempt to photograph it is not good, though the color is fairly true; I'll replace it with a better one if I can.  Meantime, you can see Joe's at no. 29082.
This is Æ14 and weighs 2.27 on my scales.  It's Late Classical, c. 350-250 BCE, acc. to Forum.  The horned and hoary head in 3/4 view on the obverse is Old Man River Ister himself and, in my opinion, as a distinctive face of the great river, a more interesting obverse that of vertically opposed young faces.  That face is my reason for getting the coin.
Pat L.

Offline Noah

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1904
  • Viva Brasil! Pátria Amada!!
Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2008, 11:03:17 pm »
Pat, that is an amazing face.  At first glance I could not see it, but upon careful inspection, it popped out!  That is the beauty of this, the quality of the coin is not immediately visible...but when it does appear...WOW.  Congrats.

Best, Noah

Offline Rupert

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1993
Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2008, 05:45:06 am »
Very beautiful indeed Patricia! Great coin!

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline moonmoth

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2454
    • What I Like About Ancient Coins
Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2008, 06:46:17 am »
Distinctive and striking - a nice coin.  I wonder why river gods often have horns?  River creatures don't.
"... A form of twisted symbolical bedsock ... the true purpose of which, as they realised at first glance, would never (alas) be revealed to mankind."

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2008, 06:47:16 pm »
I think their horn(s) is a fact I'm supposed to know.  At this moment I can only say that Acheloos is horned at least as early as the 6th century BCE.  I used to fancy that Greek imagination might have been inspired by indirect knowledge of the rhinoceros, but I can't recall an aetiology (Webster's says that etiology is the American spelling, but I've never seen it--which shows what kind of books I read, I guess).  Pat L.
The detail of a black-figure vase-painting, part of the frieze all around the large dinos on a stand, by Sophilos, ca. 570 BCE, shows Okeanos (no less) along with Hephaistos, Eleithyia, and (I guess) Tethys, in the procession of gods attending the marriage of Peleus and Thetis, the parents of Achilles.  It is in the British Museum.  It shares this subject with the famous François Vase (in Florence).  The other picture, the scarab, is self-labelled and it does have Acheloos.  Later he may have more humanity than only his face, but he keeps the horn(s).  Note that Okeanos whose waters encircle the earth-disk is serpentine, while the river is bullish, I suppose because he rushes in Spring spate and/or his flooding fertilizes his valleys and makes things green.  Pat

Offline Rupert

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1993
Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2008, 07:13:14 pm »
Look at the forehead - I think it's not the head of a man with horns but the head of a man-faced bull. Then one might ask: Why is a river-god depicted as a bull and not as a creature of the water? I think it's just to convey the sheer indomitable power of a river and the fertility it brings with it.

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2008, 07:30:06 pm »
Rupert and I posted simultaneously!  Neither knew what the other was writing.
Now, if my little coin is evidence, or is consistent with other evidence, of Istros having a true bull-bodied, early-type River image for Ister, then I am just deliriously happy to have gotten it!
It is a long time since I did any studies in early Medieval manuscripts, and that was with the UC Berkeley library at my disposal, but I do think that there are a couple of instances of horned rivers somewhere in Carolingian or Ottonian or Middle Byzantine full-page illuminations that include river images.  I just can't be sure or recall where.  But it would be no wonder, since all it would take would be for some bishop or abbot to have, e.g., a gemstone like the scarab I just posted or some other representation surviving.  P.L.

Offline moonmoth

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2454
    • What I Like About Ancient Coins
Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2008, 08:09:57 am »
Two horned rivers on coins that I had in mind when I asked the question.  Images from Coin Archives.  The river Strymon on a coin of Philip V of Macedonia, and the river Rhine on an antoninianus of Postumus.
"... A form of twisted symbolical bedsock ... the true purpose of which, as they realised at first glance, would never (alas) be revealed to mankind."

Offline Pscipio

  • Tribunus Plebis 2009
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 3756
  • Si vis pacem, cole iustitiam
Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2008, 10:08:38 am »
The Postumus Rhine river, however, also appears without horns, although this variety is much scarcer.

Lars
Leu Numismatik
www.leunumismatik.com

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2008, 04:23:11 pm »
Indeed, considering what I collect, I have dozens of bearded river gods of Imperial times from cities along the Danube; the young gods with source vessels may be tributary streams but the mature ones must be Father Ister himself.
None has horns, not even cute little 'courtesy' horns.
But early Hellenistic Istros is old enough, and Greek enough, that she evidently has an image of Ister bull-headed, with only the face anthropomorphic.  Hence my delight.
The best picture of Herakles wrestling Acheloos, by Oltos, however, does not have a bull body (attached): the horn sufficed.  It must be Acheloos, though, since it is Herakles that is besting him.  Photo well out of copyright.
For a picture in color, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/image?arch=1990.14.0258&type=vase
Hoping that you can access Perseus.
Congrats for finding ANY Imperial-date coins whose rivers have horns.
At Tomis the hornèd idea is expressed by giving Pontos at the Civic Tyche's feet lobster-claws in lieu of horns.
Pat L

Offline Robert_Brenchley

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7307
  • Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    • My gallery
Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2008, 06:03:18 pm »
The Postumus Rhine river, however, also appears without horns, although this variety is much scarcer.

Lars

Almost as though the image of the horned river god wasn't quite so familiar so far west, and either individual engravers followed their own bent, or there were two sub-issues. The question should hopefully be resolvable, since the type continued over two issues. Are there other hornless river gods?
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum

Offline moonmoth

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2454
    • What I Like About Ancient Coins
Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2008, 06:51:17 pm »
The Orontes doesn't appear to be horned, on coins with a Tyche of Antioch

The first is a quarter-nummus from Antioch under the "great persecution."

The second image is from Coin Archives, a tetradrachm of Seleucis and Pieria in Syria.
"... A form of twisted symbolical bedsock ... the true purpose of which, as they realised at first glance, would never (alas) be revealed to mankind."

Offline wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)

  • Deceased Member
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 873
Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2008, 07:55:18 pm »
None of the many Tyches based on Eutychides' Tyche of Antioch seem to show any horns on the river god (whether Orontes or not) at her feet, nor do any of the Balkan reclining river gods with overturned jug types in my possession show horns.  Actually, none of the reclining river gods I have (with the exception of the Postumus Rhine) have horns; think of the hoards of Bythinian coins of this type.  On the other hand, the deep salt water gods are frequently shown with lobster claws in lieu of horns on the head (although they don't appear all that often).  George Spradling
Hwaet!
"The pump don't work 'cuz the Vandals took the handle" - St. Augustine
GET THE HELL OFF MY LAWN!!
(1940 - 2010)

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2008, 02:31:52 am »
Having just replied to Bill Welch that I agree that, starting with my posting of July 18 of the coin I saw and bought here in Forvm, a new thread entitled "Attributes of Greek River Gods" (since the Istros coin in not later, I guess, than 3rd c. BCE, and Head HN puts it in Hellenistic bronze of Istros) would be a good idea.
Indeed, I've been trying to entice postings of Greek ones by offering the necessary comparanda in other mediums.
I think it is true that all derivatives of Eutychides' Tyche of Antioch have a hornless Orontes, and I know that all the many rivers from Imperial age Moesia Inferior are without horns.  But Thalassa with horns at Korykos is great!
But, to get things going, I shall post here the Hirmer photos (fair use) of Gela, the best of all bullish rivers.  These are from the Kraay & Hirmer picture book (German edition is Franke & Hirmer).
Pat L.

Roland Mueller

  • Guest
Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2008, 01:15:18 pm »
This interesting River-God belongs tot he oldest coins of Acarnania. I got this coin from the M+M auction, it is from the BCD collection. He collected over more than 40 years all coins from this area and from this type exists two coins only! The other one in almost very nice was to expensiv so I boughr on the second one in condition „nice“.
Coin No. 0636
Akarnania, Stratos, 420-400 BC
AR-Hemidrachm 15 mm, 1.77 gr.
AV: Bearded River-God Acheloos facing
RV: Head oft the nymph Kallirhoe facing, string of pearls around head, in the field [A – K]

Kallirhoe was the daughter of Acheloos and wife of Alkmaios, son of Amphiaraos and Eryphile. I mean this is a very special coin with a historical background.
Roland

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2008, 02:58:38 pm »
Yes!  I knew Roland would have something, and know about it.  Thank you.
Nymphs are probably important to finding the 'right' river gods.**
In Kraay & Hirmer, a smaller photo, fig. 159,  shows a nymph patting the head of Gela's river on another tetradrachm (about mid 5th c.).  We don't know her name.  She is Jenkins 371.  The legend on the coin is SOSIPOLIS, but I'm not sure whether it is the bull-river that is city-saver or the nymph.  Right now I'm searching the .pdf of Nymphen u. Chariten (thanks again to Gordian Guy; the url is http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=numismatique%20AND%20collection%3Atoronto&page=2
or under Canadian libraries (it's from Toronto) you can run down the list of titles with the keyword 'numismatique' (it's on p. 2) to Journal International d'Archéologie Numismatique, vol. 11, 1908.
I have had this great desideratum, N.u.Char.. for only about a week, and I shall spend this afternoon printing out the indexes and the plates.  It is a large and slow pdf, and once you have a reference it is easy enough to read off the page.  Don't worry about the French title of the Greek journal (nor is the article in Greek).  It is in Imhoof-Blumer's lucid German.
So far I haven't found another nymph treating a horned river so gratefully, but there are bull-headed rivers also at Campanian Neapolis (whence any we might find on Republican coins?) and elsewhere in western Greece.  Pat L.

P.S. Stratos: Coins like Roland's are listed by I-Bl op cit pp. 82-3, nos. 236-237, pl. V, nos. 57-58, esp. the nymph's face on Pl. V, 57.  Those are listed as drachmai, though their diameters are like Roland's coin.
** Apart from Western Greece, and bulls with semi-human heads, however, I didn't locate much.  Imhoof-B. did think that Sosipolis designated the Nymph crowning the man-headed bull river of Gela.

P.S. Cf further for mine, in CA, [BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
and in that list also nos. 150-151, 189, 124, 224-5, and more (some may have been around twice).  Also, of course, AMNG I, 1, no. 476, Taf. II, 26.

Roland Mueller

  • Guest
Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2008, 05:32:26 am »
This coins with the river-god Acheloos are also from the BCD collection. I am really proud that I could buy some coins from this very important and famous collection. Especially the silver stater is of a high and beautiful style- what a strong, impressive portrait of the river-god? I love also the Apollon on the nice decorated thron!

Coin No. 0918
Akarnania, Thyrreion, 168-160 v. Chr.
AR-Stater 25 mm, 9.78 gr.
AV: Head of the River-God Acheloos right, MENANDROS (magistrats name), within a double dotted border
RV: Apollon Aktios enthroned left, holding bow, QURREIWN, in the left field monogram

Ex Auction M+M 23 (2007), Nr. 389

Ref:
SNG Copenhagen 417;
Imhof-Blumer, A. 175.22

Coin No. 0368
Akarnatia, Leukas, 3. cent. BC
AE-22 mm, 5.69 gr.
AV: Head of bearded Heracles in lion’s skin right, monogram below, within dotted border
RV: Head of bearded River-God Acheloos right, monogram on the left, trident above, within lined border

Ex Auction M+M 23 (2007), Lot No. 39.5

Ref.:
BMC, Vgl. 169.19;
Imhof-Blumer, A. 17.5;

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2008, 01:04:51 am »
Just after we were working on this thread, I saw a little bronze of Cales and bought it, because I had no Campanian coin of the period when Rome was beginning to mint artistically, with Campanian help, and it had a man-headed bull, which I take to be their river (it needn't be a large river) as well as a fine Apollo head.  It isn't rare or wonderful, like Roland's, but I like it and here it is:
• 11 08 08 Æ20 6.03g 7:30h  Campania, Cales,  Hellenistic, after 268.  Head of Apollo, laureate, to l.  Rv Nike flying to r. over back of River Bull pacing to r.  Lindgren I, 182; he says that his and ANS 184-7 say CALENO, which is not complete here.  Less exactly similar to Sear GCV I, 547,  Illustrating the man-headed bull and the coinage of Campania at the period when it became relevant to Rome.
Pat L.

Offline areich

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 8706
    • Ancient Greek and Roman Coins, featuring BMC online and other books
Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2008, 03:12:47 am »
Here's mine that I got very cheaply a while ago:


I did not know that they also represented rivers (and I've never seen this thread before) but here's an interesting one
if not as beautiful as these silver coins earlier in the thread.

[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Andreas
Andreas Reich

Offline Jochen

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12278
  • Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat.
Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2008, 10:19:04 am »
I think this coin belongs here too.

Sicily, Gela, c.420-415 BC
AE - tetras, 4.81g
obv. Bull with lowered head, l.
        above GELAS, beneath three pellets (for 3 onkiai, tetras)
rev. Head of rivergod Gela, diademed and with horns on forehead, r.
SNG Copenhagen 283/5

A word to the ancient river Rhine:
As mentioned before it was because their incalculability and their outrage that the untamable power of the ancient rivers was equated to the power of bulls and that they were venerated in the shape of bulls.
Until the beginning of the last century the Upper-Rhine uproars through the rocky gorge of Laufenburg so that it was impossible to understand one's own words in the streets of this small town and the whole city was covered in spume. This natural wonder was a must be for each visit to Europe. In AD 1908/14 the rocks and cliffs were blown up for the biggest hydropower plant worldwide at this time.
The lowlands of the Upper-Rhine between Freiburg and Karlsruhe were a huge floodplain changing to a giant sea with a length of 100km each springtime. It was the engineer Tulla who tamed the wild stream in 1817-1862 by squeezing him in a 240m broad kind of channel. Now the dangerous floodwaters didn't appear anymore (they now occur at the Lower-Rhine!) and the Malaria was banned. The modern cultural landscape arose.
This we should have in mind when we look at modern rivers. The ancient rivers were not identical with the peaceful rivers of our lowlands today. In Europe you can find only few of the old wild rivers, may be the Tagliamento in Veneto/Italy.

Best regards     

Offline Robert_Brenchley

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7307
  • Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    • My gallery
Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2008, 05:14:44 pm »
I grew uip on the Thames, which can never have been particularly wild, but is now completely domesticated, with locks every few miles. Take the locks away, and it would probably be quite fast-flowing, like, say, the Wye. The same thing must have been repeated all the way across Europe.
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum

Offline Kopperkid

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 84
  • Wisdom begins in wonder.
Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2008, 09:44:04 pm »
Having just replied to Bill Welch that I agree that, starting with my posting of July 18 of the coin I saw and bought here in Forvm, a new thread entitled "Attributes of Greek River Gods" (since the Istros coin in not later, I guess, than 3rd c. BCE, and Head HN puts it in Hellenistic bronze of Istros) would be a good idea.
Indeed, I've been trying to entice postings of Greek ones by offering the necessary comparanda in other mediums.
I think it is true that all derivatives of Eutychides' Tyche of Antioch have a hornless Orontes, and I know that all the many rivers from Imperial age Moesia Inferior are without horns.  But Thalassa with horns at Korykos is great!
But, to get things going, I shall post here the Hirmer photos (fair use) of Gela, the best of all bullish rivers.  These are from the Kraay & Hirmer picture book (German edition is Franke & Hirmer).
Pat L.
Pat-

I really do love those Gela coins! Just wish I could actually afford one. Anyway, I thought this might be fitting. Davisson has one in his current auction.
http://j.b5z.net/i/u/2141526/f/A27_Greek.pdf
Great style and very beautiful.
There's also a great example of "Isis" from Kaunos that we discussed a year or so back. I still refer back to that thread quite a bit.

Ryan

Offline areich

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 8706
    • Ancient Greek and Roman Coins, featuring BMC online and other books
Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2010, 05:49:35 am »
Here's a screen shot.

Andreas Reich

Offline Enodia

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2582
Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2010, 08:52:57 pm »
thanks for the screen shot Andreas.  :)

those Laos didrachms are pretty scarce and always expensive. this is a really nice one, so i'm sure thay will have little trouble getting the estimate or more.
the style has always reminded me of the Campanian didrachms, but it's easy to see the Gela connection on this specimen, especially with that pointy beard.

nice coin, and at least i can still dream... 

enviously,
~ Peter

lusomosa

  • Guest
Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2010, 06:03:37 am »
Hi guys,

Here's a pic from the Drachm from Istros that goes on Auction next week in Brussels. Here you see on the reverse, the same theme as on the bronze coin that started this thread :
It is a eagle ( white-tailed eagle ? the biggest eagle in Europe and rather common arround the estuary of the Danube) and a Dolphin.
This particular coin has an eagle of great style and as a birdwatcher myself I can indeed see a white-tailed eagle ( relative of the american bold eagle ) on this representation. On other coins of this same type the aegle looks a lot like a swallow or a martin.
Does anyone have an idea about the representations meaning ? 
The eagle represents Zeus and the dolphin Apollo. any thoughts on this ?

PS : this coin was on the old collection of Pozzi. He really could appreciate a coin of good style !

Luis

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity