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Author Topic: Attributes of Greek River Gods  (Read 42714 times)

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Offline Molinari

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2012, 10:21:23 am »
Here is a link to my webpage with many examples of river gods.  I figured it would go nicely with this thread.

http://manfacedbulls.wordpress.com/

Nick

Offline Molinari

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2013, 09:30:43 am »
Found this image while researching river-god iconography.  I think it is clear that the iconography of Greek river gods stems from earlier Near Eastern traditions:

Image Info: Royal Harp.  Wood, variously ornamented with gold and mosaic inlay [upper part of inlay pictured], height 47 1/4".  c. 2650 B.C.  From Ur.  University Museum, Philadelphia. (J. Du Ry, C. Art of the Ancient Near and Middle East. New York: Harry N. Abrams, 1969, p.55)



Offline Molinari

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2013, 04:12:39 pm »
The plot thickens.  Today I found what I believe might be the earliest man-faced bull, from Karanovo VI culture:

Vessel in the form of a winged man-bull. Terracotta with red and white paint. Karanovo Culture, Neolithic (5th mill. BCE). From Goljam Izvor, Bulgaria. Height 16 cm Inv. 223 Hist.District Museum, Razgrad, Bulgaria

I know that scholars have looked for and not found the exact connection between the Greek man-faced bull and the Near Eastern lamassa (winged man-faced bull, sometimes seen on the coinage of Asia Minor) but perhaps there is a common origin that pre-dates both!


Offline slokind

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2013, 03:01:03 pm »
Considering continuity in Danubian and pre-Greek peninsular cultures, but also considering early farmers' experience of rivers: rushing in spate, untamable, fertilizing of fields when inundating them, I must agree with your suggestion.  Of course, proving it (or even practically proving it) would want much more than a single example, and continuity in Karanovo contexts, in successor contexts in Danublian lands, and in Helladic contexts down to and including early Archaic (i.e., c. 8th century BCE).  Bull identities in myths full of other indications of very deep grass roots (cf. the story of Semele) also should be considered.  Also remember that an idea like this one (the bull-headed river) may be continuous in Asia Minor and on to Mesopotamia as well as in Danubian and pre-Greek Helladic.  At any rate, I would be ready to entertain a more than "orientalizing" (viz, from trade and trading colonies of the eastern Mediterranean lands).
Mind-muddling though it is, a trip through A. B. Cook's Zeus, not limited to its index, might interest you.
Pat L.

Taras

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2013, 04:57:04 pm »
Some days ago I visited the Museum of Antiquities in Turin.
In the Cypriot collection an object caught my attention.
I think it's a man-faced bull.
The object is dated circa 2000 b.C.
I took the pics with a phone, so the quality is bad.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2013, 08:22:34 am »
Interesting creature.  It could also be a cat.  Were there many cats in the exhibit?

Taras

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2013, 01:54:08 pm »
No cats in the Cypriot collection.
Probably my bad photos can be confusing, but it seemed to me that there were horns on the head, and not the ears.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2013, 11:02:09 am »
Another very early example:

"Animal lid" from Vinca, Serbia, Yugoslavia.  Vinca-Tordos, 5th-4th Millenium BC.  Clay.  Belgrade, National Museum.

It's really our noses that set us apart, isn't it? 

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2013, 06:41:24 pm »
My latest acquistion showing the Akarnanian depiction on bronze coinage of the river god Acheloos (image below and details   https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-102667 )  It joins an earlier one in the collection  (image below and details https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-86412 )

This poses for me a couple of closely related questions that I hope someone can answer:

Why is it that on the bronze coins of the Akarnanians that Acheloos is depicted with a beard, while on the silver coins he is exclusively depicted beardless (refer to an example in a preceeding post by Roland M)?  

What is the significance in this difference in the consistently distinct depictions of Acheloos on the AE (with beard) and AR (beardless) coinage of the Akarnanians?

Offline Molinari

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2013, 07:05:21 pm »
There are actually a few silver coins from Akarnania in which he has a beard.  See here:

http://manfacedbullsar.wordpress.com/akarnania/

As for the bronze he is always bearded on Akarnanian coinage, although two rare issues from Ambrakia show him beardless.  I'm not sure of the significance of beardless vs not, but it is an interesting question.

http://manfacedbulls.wordpress.com/ambrakia/


Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2013, 07:11:16 pm »
Thanks great links and wonderful catalogues you have compiled.  

I'd overlooked the small fifth century silvers with the bearded depiction. That plus the other examples you highlight suggest that it may simply reflect a varying stylistic preference in the depiction, one that varied with time and location in Akarnania, rather than denomination or metal type of the coin.

Taras

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2013, 09:16:02 pm »
A working hypothesis: The bearded mfb is Achelous (also in Greek Italy and Sicily), while the beardless mfb could be a local river, a minor brother of the great Achelous (for the Greeks three thousand rivers existed, of which Achelous was the older brother), assimilable to Achelous, but not Achelous himself.
I long debated this thinking with Nick on private mailing. It's a complex issue, that needs further studies and a bright explanation, impossible to give in the space of a post.
I thank so much Lloyd for his question, that drew my attention and gave me the chance to obtain a further little brick for the construction of my hypothesis. I could be wrong, but I observed that on the Acarnanian coinage, the beardless MFBs never have the trident (sign of Poseidon) as secondary symbol, while we find it on the bearded types, and we know that in ancient theogony Achelous was son of Poseidon. (other versions of the myth told that All the 3000 river gods, including Achelous, were sons of Tethys and Oceanus... but only for Achelous there is the alternative "son of Poseidon" version.)
Bye :)
Nico


Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2013, 11:02:41 pm »
A working hypothesis: The bearded mfb is Achelous (also in Greek Italy and Sicily), while the beardless mfb could be a local river, a minor brother of the great Achelous (for the Greeks three thousand rivers existed, of which Achelous was the older brother), assimilable to Achelous, but not Achelous himself.
.......... but only for Achelous there is the alternative "son of Poseidon" version.)

Thanks - that is an interesting obervation regarding the trident and its possible implications..... two or more river gods associated with the one river, but only one a descendent of Poseidon!

Are there any parallels to be found elsewhere in the MFB typology with two different depictions in the one locale and era?

Taras

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2013, 05:40:34 am »
A working hypothesis: The bearded mfb is Achelous (also in Greek Italy and Sicily), while the beardless mfb could be a local river, a minor brother of the great Achelous (for the Greeks three thousand rivers existed, of which Achelous was the older brother), assimilable to Achelous, but not Achelous himself.
.......... but only for Achelous there is the alternative "son of Poseidon" version.)

Thanks - that is an interesting obervation regarding the trident and its possible implications..... two or more river gods associated with the one river, but only one a descendent of Poseidon!

Are there any parallels to be found elsewhere in the MFB typology with two different depictions in the one locale and era?

I don't know any strict parallel, but in MG coinage there are lots of examples of two different depictions of river gods in the one local and era: as MFB, or as beardless young head with horns.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2013, 09:00:27 am »
A working hypothesis: The bearded mfb is Achelous (also in Greek Italy and Sicily), while the beardless mfb could be a local river, a minor brother of the great Achelous (for the Greeks three thousand rivers existed, of which Achelous was the older brother), assimilable to Achelous, but not Achelous himself.
.......... but only for Achelous there is the alternative "son of Poseidon" version.)

Thanks - that is an interesting obervation regarding the trident and its possible implications..... two or more river gods associated with the one river, but only one a descendent of Poseidon!

Are there any parallels to be found elsewhere in the MFB typology with two different depictions in the one locale and era?

As in bearded vs. not bearded?

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2013, 04:45:07 pm »
A working hypothesis: The bearded mfb is Achelous (also in Greek Italy and Sicily), while the beardless mfb could be a local river, a minor brother of the great Achelous (for the Greeks three thousand rivers existed, of which Achelous was the older brother), assimilable to Achelous, but not Achelous himself.
.......... but only for Achelous there is the alternative "son of Poseidon" version.)

Thanks - that is an interesting obervation regarding the trident and its possible implications..... two or more river gods associated with the one river, but only one a descendent of Poseidon!

Are there any parallels to be found elsewhere in the MFB typology with two different depictions in the one locale and era?

As in bearded vs. not bearded?

Yes......if there any other examples where the two types (bearded and beardless) are depicted essentially in the same era and place, then it would lend some support for Taras' hypothesis that two types of river gods are invoked. It would tend to indicate that something more than a varying style preference on the part of the engraver, or local authorities, may be involved in the two distinctive depictions seen on the coinage of the Akarnanians.

I spotted this one in your cataloge with what appears to be two bearded heads http://manfacedbulls.wordpress.com/assorus/  which suggests the possibility of two river gods in one locale, albeit with two rivers present near that city. In this case they are depicted in the same way, with beard, seemingly as twins, if indeed it is a depiction of two MFB's standing side by side, as I think it is.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2013, 06:59:29 pm »
I think Akarnania and Ambrakia are the only two examples where this occurs.

The Assoros coin is fascinating.  I hope I can find a clear example during my study to confirm it is two man-faced bulls!

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2013, 07:34:09 pm »
I think Akarnania and Ambrakia are the only two examples where this occurs.

Interesting in that Ambrakia is closely associated with Akarnania

Given the length of the Achelous River, the longest river in Greece, and the dispersal of minting cities along its length one could speculate that the beardless youthful MFB head might be associated with the upper reaches of the river in its youthful stage and the associated highland areas, while the bearded mature MFB head depiction might be more favoured in the lower reaches of the mature river..... the stages of the river thus depicted in the maturing of the depiction of the river god? In which case the trident of Poseidon accompanying the bearded portrayal might be associated with the lower reaches of the river where tidal influences are apparent.

If this speculation were to be correct, then yes its is a style preference in the minting city concerned, but one associated with the symbolism of a maturing river god as one progresses from the upsteam highlands to the plains on the lower reaches of the river.

All speculation, but it suggests the possibility that symbolism, as much as style variation, might be involved in the varying depictions of the river god on the coinage of Akarnania.

Taras

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2013, 05:41:24 am »
I think Akarnania and Ambrakia are the only two examples where this occurs.

Interesting in that Ambrakia is closely associated with Akarnania

Given the length of the Achelous River, the longest river in Greece, and the dispersal of minting cities along its length one could speculate that the beardless youthful MFB head might be associated with the upper reaches of the river in its youthful stage and the associated highland areas, while the bearded mature MFB head depiction might be more favoured in the lower reaches of the mature river..... the stages of the river thus depicted in the maturing of the depiction of the river god? In which case the trident of Poseidon accompanying the bearded portrayal might be associated with the lower reaches of the river where tidal influences are apparent.

If this speculation were to be correct, then yes its is a style preference in the minting city concerned, but one associated with the symbolism of a maturing river god as one progresses from the upsteam highlands to the plains on the lower reaches of the river.

All speculation, but it suggests the possibility that symbolism, as much as style variation, might be involved in the varying depictions of the river god on the coinage of Akarnania.

Interesting point of view, thanks for sharing Lloyd.

Taras

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2013, 06:56:27 am »
I think Akarnania and Ambrakia are the only two examples where this occurs.

The Assoros coin is fascinating.  I hope I can find a clear example during my study to confirm it is two man-faced bulls!


I think they are man-faced bulls.
Evidences:

- Calciati reports 4 specimens, three from Virzi, one from a private collection.
All the known specimens are almost illegible, but the specimen listed as III.259.3/2 (Virzì pl.25 n.758) seems to show a human nose, I think they are man-faced bulls. See the attached pic.

- A cult to river deity is attested in the city of Assorus. Cicero (Verr. 4.44) speaks of the Temple of Crysas at Assoros. Crysas was a river deity, still today Crisa is the name of a torrent near the modern Assoro. There is a coin minted in Assoros under roman rule showing the deity...

Assoros. After 210 BC. Æ 20mm (8.06 gm). Head of Apollo right / River-god Chrysas standing right, holding amphora and cornucopiae. Calciati III pg. 259, 1/4 (this coin)

- Two man faced bulls should represent two rivers, as intelligently spotted by the good Lloyd. Well, the ancient city "spread across the plateau between the rivers Salso and Dittaino in a remarkably strong position, naturally defended by the steepness of the hillsides which contain numerous chamber tombs". (cfr. The Princeton Encyclopedia of Classical Sites).

I attach a screen from google maps, in which I marker the city in the circle, the river Salso (1), the river Dittaino (2), and the torrent Crisa (3), tributary of Dittaimo.

Regards
Nico

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2013, 06:28:22 pm »
Taras - Interesting background and analysis... and just as the rivers run parallel to each other, to the north and south of Assorus respectively, so the twin river gods stand in a parallel portrayal on the coinage of the city   http://manfacedbulls.wordpress.com/assorus/  Coincidence, or by design? Methinks the latter!

Offline Molinari

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2013, 01:48:30 pm »
Another man-headed bull from Ur on the following piece in the BM:

Sumerian Early Dynastic III, c. 2600-2400 BCE. From the royal cemetery, Ur (Iraq).
Lapis lazuli, shell, and red limestone, with restored bitumen and red material on restored wood box
Width 49.5 cm, height 21.6 cm. Possibly soundbox of a musical instrument. British Museum ME 121201

Described as a lion-headed eagle over "bull man".


Offline Molinari

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2013, 08:37:15 am »
I'm reading a fascinating article now that links Achelous to the Near Eastern "kusarikku" (pictured below), based on myths of creation and the labors of heroic figures:

D'Alessio, G.B. "Textual Fluctuations and Cosmic Streams: Ocean and Acheloios" The Journal of Hellenic Studies, Vol. 124 (2004), pp. 16-37.

I'm going to summarize the article at some point and add it to the MFB page. 

From the Met:

Human-headed bison
Serpentine (lizardite)
Southern Mesopotamia, probably Tello (ancient Girsu)
Reign of Ur-Ningirsu of Lagash, 2150-2100 BC

Offline Molinari

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2013, 08:04:20 am »
Four pre-historic man-faced bulls, c. 5000-4000 BC.  Marija Gimbutas, in The Gods and Goddesses of Old Europe, suggests that the "bull with human mask" is actually Dionysus.  This might lend support to Eckhel's belief that the man-faced bulls on the coinage of Magna Graecia is Dionysus Hebon.  It might also mean that the iconography of Achelous was taken from an earlier iconography of Dionysus.  The human form of Dionysus and Achelous with small bull horns is very similar, so why not the man-faced bull form?

About the picture, clockwise from the top left:

1. Human-headed (masked) bull from Fafos II at Kosovska Mitrovica, southern Yugoslavia.  Mid Vinca, 5000-4500 BC.

2. Human-headed (masked) bull from Valac, southern Yugoslavia.  Late Vinca, 4500-4000 BC.

3. Terracotta head (mask) of a bull with human-like eyes.  Sitagroi, Macedonia.  East Balkan civilization, c. 4500BC.

4. Crouching bull wearing human mask.  Vase from the mound of Gumelnita.  East Balkan civilization, c. 4500 BC.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Attributes of Greek River Gods
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2013, 10:41:55 am »
Another stunning Karanovo man-faced bull!

 

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