Attributes of Greek River Gods

[slokind]

ISTROS GUARANTEED GENUINE, complete with the eagle and dolphin.
This came today, and my attempt to photograph it is not good, though the color is fairly true; I'll replace it with a better one if I can.  Meantime, you can see Joe's at no. 29082.
This is Æ14 and weighs 2.27 on my scales.  It's Late Classical, c. 350-250 BCE, acc. to Forum.  The horned and hoary head in 3/4 view on the obverse is Old Man River Ister himself and, in my opinion, as a distinctive face of the great river, a more interesting obverse that of vertically opposed young faces.  That face is my reason for getting the coin.
Pat L.

[Noah]

Pat, that is an amazing face.  At first glance I could not see it, but upon careful inspection, it popped out!  That is the beauty of this, the quality of the coin is not immediately visible...but when it does appear...WOW.  Congrats.

Best, Noah

[Rupert]

Very beautiful indeed Patricia! Great coin!

Rupert

[moonmoth]

Distinctive and striking - a nice coin.  I wonder why river gods often have horns?  River creatures don't.

[slokind]

I think their horn(s) is a fact I'm supposed to know.  At this moment I can only say that Acheloos is horned at least as early as the 6th century BCE.  I used to fancy that Greek imagination might have been inspired by indirect knowledge of the rhinoceros, but I can't recall an aetiology (Webster's says that etiology is the American spelling, but I've never seen it--which shows what kind of books I read, I guess).  Pat L.
The detail of a black-figure vase-painting, part of the frieze all around the large dinos on a stand, by Sophilos, ca. 570 BCE, shows Okeanos (no less) along with Hephaistos, Eleithyia, and (I guess) Tethys, in the procession of gods attending the marriage of Peleus and Thetis, the parents of Achilles.  It is in the British Museum.  It shares this subject with the famous François Vase (in Florence).  The other picture, the scarab, is self-labelled and it does have Acheloos.  Later he may have more humanity than only his face, but he keeps the horn(s).  Note that Okeanos whose waters encircle the earth-disk is serpentine, while the river is bullish, I suppose because he rushes in Spring spate and/or his flooding fertilizes his valleys and makes things green.  Pat

[Rupert]

Look at the forehead - I think it's not the head of a man with horns but the head of a man-faced bull. Then one might ask: Why is a river-god depicted as a bull and not as a creature of the water? I think it's just to convey the sheer indomitable power of a river and the fertility it brings with it.

Rupert

[slokind]

Rupert and I posted simultaneously!  Neither knew what the other was writing.
Now, if my little coin is evidence, or is consistent with other evidence, of Istros having a true bull-bodied, early-type River image for Ister, then I am just deliriously happy to have gotten it!
It is a long time since I did any studies in early Medieval manuscripts, and that was with the UC Berkeley library at my disposal, but I do think that there are a couple of instances of horned rivers somewhere in Carolingian or Ottonian or Middle Byzantine full-page illuminations that include river images.  I just can't be sure or recall where.  But it would be no wonder, since all it would take would be for some bishop or abbot to have, e.g., a gemstone like the scarab I just posted or some other representation surviving.  P.L.

[moonmoth]

Two horned rivers on coins that I had in mind when I asked the question.  Images from Coin Archives.  The river Strymon on a coin of Philip V of Macedonia, and the river Rhine on an antoninianus of Postumus.

[Pscipio]

The Postumus Rhine river, however, also appears without horns, although this variety is much scarcer.

Lars

[slokind]

Indeed, considering what I collect, I have dozens of bearded river gods of Imperial times from cities along the Danube; the young gods with source vessels may be tributary streams but the mature ones must be Father Ister himself.
None has horns, not even cute little 'courtesy' horns.
But early Hellenistic Istros is old enough, and Greek enough, that she evidently has an image of Ister bull-headed, with only the face anthropomorphic.  Hence my delight.
The best picture of Herakles wrestling Acheloos, by Oltos, however, does not have a bull body (attached): the horn sufficed.  It must be Acheloos, though, since it is Herakles that is besting him.  Photo well out of copyright.
For a picture in color, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/image?arch=1990.14.0258&type=vase
Hoping that you can access Perseus.
Congrats for finding ANY Imperial-date coins whose rivers have horns.
At Tomis the hornèd idea is expressed by giving Pontos at the Civic Tyche's feet lobster-claws in lieu of horns.
Pat L

[Robert_Brenchley]

The Postumus Rhine river, however, also appears without horns, although this variety is much scarcer.

Lars

Almost as though the image of the horned river god wasn't quite so familiar so far west, and either individual engravers followed their own bent, or there were two sub-issues. The question should hopefully be resolvable, since the type continued over two issues. Are there other hornless river gods?

[moonmoth]

The Orontes doesn't appear to be horned, on coins with a Tyche of Antioch. 

The first is a quarter-nummus from Antioch under the "great persecution."

The second image is from Coin Archives, a tetradrachm of Seleucis and Pieria in Syria.

[wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)]

None of the many Tyches based on Eutychides' Tyche of Antioch seem to show any horns on the river god (whether Orontes or not) at her feet, nor do any of the Balkan reclining river gods with overturned jug types in my possession show horns.  Actually, none of the reclining river gods I have (with the exception of the Postumus Rhine) have horns; think of the hoards of Bythinian coins of this type.  On the other hand, the deep salt water gods are frequently shown with lobster claws in lieu of horns on the head (although they don't appear all that often).  George Spradling

[slokind]

Having just replied to Bill Welch that I agree that, starting with my posting of July 18 of the coin I saw and bought here in Forvm, a new thread entitled "Attributes of Greek River Gods" (since the Istros coin in not later, I guess, than 3rd c. BCE, and Head HN puts it in Hellenistic bronze of Istros) would be a good idea.
Indeed, I've been trying to entice postings of Greek ones by offering the necessary comparanda in other mediums.
I think it is true that all derivatives of Eutychides' Tyche of Antioch have a hornless Orontes, and I know that all the many rivers from Imperial age Moesia Inferior are without horns.  But Thalassa with horns at Korykos is great!
But, to get things going, I shall post here the Hirmer photos (fair use) of Gela, the best of all bullish rivers.  These are from the Kraay & Hirmer picture book (German edition is Franke & Hirmer).
Pat L.

[Roland M]

This interesting River-God belongs tot he oldest coins of Acarnania. I got this coin from the M+M auction, it is from the BCD collection. He collected over more than 40 years all coins from this area and from this type exists two coins only! The other one in almost very nice was to expensiv so I boughr on the second one in condition „nice“.
Coin No. 0636
Akarnania, Stratos, 420-400 BC
AR-Hemidrachm 15 mm, 1.77 gr.
AV: Bearded River-God Acheloos facing
RV: Head oft the nymph Kallirhoe facing, string of pearls around head, in the field [A – K]

Kallirhoe was the daughter of Acheloos and wife of Alkmaios, son of Amphiaraos and Eryphile. I mean this is a very special coin with a historical background.
Roland

[slokind]

Yes!  I knew Roland would have something, and know about it.  Thank you.
Nymphs are probably important to finding the 'right' river gods.**
In Kraay & Hirmer, a smaller photo, fig. 159,  shows a nymph patting the head of Gela's river on another tetradrachm (about mid 5th c.).  We don't know her name.  She is Jenkins 371.  The legend on the coin is SOSIPOLIS, but I'm not sure whether it is the bull-river that is city-saver or the nymph.  Right now I'm searching the .pdf of Nymphen u. Chariten (thanks again to Gordian Guy; the url is http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=numismatique%20AND%20collection%3Atoronto&page=2
or under Canadian libraries (it's from Toronto) you can run down the list of titles with the keyword 'numismatique' (it's on p. 2) to Journal International d'Archéologie Numismatique, vol. 11, 1908.
I have had this great desideratum, N.u.Char.. for only about a week, and I shall spend this afternoon printing out the indexes and the plates.  It is a large and slow pdf, and once you have a reference it is easy enough to read off the page.  Don't worry about the French title of the Greek journal (nor is the article in Greek).  It is in Imhoof-Blumer's lucid German.
So far I haven't found another nymph treating a horned river so gratefully, but there are bull-headed rivers also at Campanian Neapolis (whence any we might find on Republican coins?) and elsewhere in western Greece.  Pat L.

P.S. Stratos: Coins like Roland's are listed by I-Bl op cit pp. 82-3, nos. 236-237, pl. V, nos. 57-58, esp. the nymph's face on Pl. V, 57.  Those are listed as drachmai, though their diameters are like Roland's coin.
** Apart from Western Greece, and bulls with semi-human heads, however, I didn't locate much.  Imhoof-B. did think that Sosipolis designated the Nymph crowning the man-headed bull river of Gela.

P.S. Cf further for mine, in CA, [BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
and in that list also nos. 150-151, 189, 124, 224-5, and more (some may have been around twice).  Also, of course, AMNG I, 1, no. 476, Taf. II, 26.

[Roland M]

This coins with the river-god Acheloos are also from the BCD collection. I am really proud that I could buy some coins from this very important and famous collection. Especially the silver stater is of a high and beautiful style- what a strong, impressive portrait of the river-god? I love also the Apollon on the nice decorated thron!

Coin No. 0918
Akarnania, Thyrreion, 168-160 v. Chr.
AR-Stater 25 mm, 9.78 gr.
AV: Head of the River-God Acheloos right, MENANDROS (magistrats name), within a double dotted border
RV: Apollon Aktios enthroned left, holding bow, QURREIWN, in the left field monogram

Ex Auction M+M 23 (2007), Nr. 389

Ref:
SNG Copenhagen 417;
Imhof-Blumer, A. 175.22

Coin No. 0368
Akarnatia, Leukas, 3. cent. BC
AE-22 mm, 5.69 gr.
AV: Head of bearded Heracles in lion’s skin right, monogram below, within dotted border
RV: Head of bearded River-God Acheloos right, monogram on the left, trident above, within lined border

Ex Auction M+M 23 (2007), Lot No. 39.5

Ref.:
BMC, Vgl. 169.19;
Imhof-Blumer, A. 17.5;

[slokind]

Just after we were working on this thread, I saw a little bronze of Cales and bought it, because I had no Campanian coin of the period when Rome was beginning to mint artistically, with Campanian help, and it had a man-headed bull, which I take to be their river (it needn't be a large river) as well as a fine Apollo head.  It isn't rare or wonderful, like Roland's, but I like it and here it is:
• 11 08 08 Æ20 6.03g 7:30h  Campania, Cales,  Hellenistic, after 268.  Head of Apollo, laureate, to l.  Rv Nike flying to r. over back of River Bull pacing to r.  Lindgren I, 182; he says that his and ANS 184-7 say CALENO, which is not complete here.  Less exactly similar to Sear GCV I, 547,  Illustrating the man-headed bull and the coinage of Campania at the period when it became relevant to Rome.
Pat L.

[areich]

Here's mine that I got very cheaply a while ago:


I did not know that they also represented rivers (and I've never seen this thread before) but here's an interesting one
if not as beautiful as these silver coins earlier in the thread.

[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Andreas

[Jochen]

I think this coin belongs here too.

Sicily, Gela, c.420-415 BC
AE - tetras, 4.81g
obv. Bull with lowered head, l.
        above GELAS, beneath three pellets (for 3 onkiai, tetras)
rev. Head of rivergod Gela, diademed and with horns on forehead, r.
SNG Copenhagen 283/5

A word to the ancient river Rhine:
As mentioned before it was because their incalculability and their outrage that the untamable power of the ancient rivers was equated to the power of bulls and that they were venerated in the shape of bulls.
Until the beginning of the last century the Upper-Rhine uproars through the rocky gorge of Laufenburg so that it was impossible to understand one's own words in the streets of this small town and the whole city was covered in spume. This natural wonder was a must be for each visit to Europe. In AD 1908/14 the rocks and cliffs were blown up for the biggest hydropower plant worldwide at this time.
The lowlands of the Upper-Rhine between Freiburg and Karlsruhe were a huge floodplain changing to a giant sea with a length of 100km each springtime. It was the engineer Tulla who tamed the wild stream in 1817-1862 by squeezing him in a 240m broad kind of channel. Now the dangerous floodwaters didn't appear anymore (they now occur at the Lower-Rhine!) and the Malaria was banned. The modern cultural landscape arose.
This we should have in mind when we look at modern rivers. The ancient rivers were not identical with the peaceful rivers of our lowlands today. In Europe you can find only few of the old wild rivers, may be the Tagliamento in Veneto/Italy.

Best regards     

[Robert_Brenchley]

I grew uip on the Thames, which can never have been particularly wild, but is now completely domesticated, with locks every few miles. Take the locks away, and it would probably be quite fast-flowing, like, say, the Wye. The same thing must have been repeated all the way across Europe.

[Kopperkid]

Having just replied to Bill Welch that I agree that, starting with my posting of July 18 of the coin I saw and bought here in Forvm, a new thread entitled "Attributes of Greek River Gods" (since the Istros coin in not later, I guess, than 3rd c. BCE, and Head HN puts it in Hellenistic bronze of Istros) would be a good idea.
Indeed, I've been trying to entice postings of Greek ones by offering the necessary comparanda in other mediums.
I think it is true that all derivatives of Eutychides' Tyche of Antioch have a hornless Orontes, and I know that all the many rivers from Imperial age Moesia Inferior are without horns.  But Thalassa with horns at Korykos is great!
But, to get things going, I shall post here the Hirmer photos (fair use) of Gela, the best of all bullish rivers.  These are from the Kraay & Hirmer picture book (German edition is Franke & Hirmer).
Pat L.

Pat-

I really do love those Gela coins! Just wish I could actually afford one. Anyway, I thought this might be fitting. Davisson has one in his current auction.
http://j.b5z.net/i/u/2141526/f/A27_Greek.pdf
Great style and very beautiful.
There's also a great example of "Isis" from Kaunos that we discussed a year or so back. I still refer back to that thread quite a bit.

Ryan

[lusomosa]

I guys,

I saw this coin on a catalogue ( number 5 ) and thought about this thread. It is a stater from Laos and the bull with a human face does represent a river. Just like the coins from Gela but here the full bull is represented.
It is based on the early coins of Sybaris as the text refers to.

It must be the best stater of this type from Laos I've ever seen.

I hope the link works ( I never tryed to make one )

http://www.wobook.com/WBUi4ZW38k84

Further on on the same catalogue ( number 12 ) you see a drachm from Istros ( beautiful coin ) Here too the two faces should represent ( the scholars are not sure , and I'm not as well ) the two arms of the Danube at its delta.
The reverse is the same as the nice bronze that started this thread.

Luis

[areich]

Here's a screen shot.

[Enodia]

thanks for the screen shot Andreas. 

those Laos didrachms are pretty scarce and always expensive. this is a really nice one, so i'm sure thay will have little trouble getting the estimate or more.
the style has always reminded me of the Campanian didrachms, but it's easy to see the Gela connection on this specimen, especially with that pointy beard.

nice coin, and at least i can still dream... 

enviously,
~ Peter

[lusomosa]

Hi guys,

Here's a pic from the Drachm from Istros that goes on Auction next week in Brussels. Here you see on the reverse, the same theme as on the bronze coin that started this thread :
It is a eagle ( white-tailed eagle ? the biggest eagle in Europe and rather common arround the estuary of the Danube) and a Dolphin.
This particular coin has an eagle of great style and as a birdwatcher myself I can indeed see a white-tailed eagle ( relative of the american bold eagle ) on this representation. On other coins of this same type the aegle looks a lot like a swallow or a martin.
Does anyone have an idea about the representations meaning ? 
The eagle represents Zeus and the dolphin Apollo. any thoughts on this ?

PS : this coin was on the old collection of Pozzi. He really could appreciate a coin of good style !

Luis

[Jochen]

Should be moved to ''Classical Numismatic'

Jochen

[Molinari]

Here is a link to my webpage with many examples of river gods.  I figured it would go nicely with this thread.

http://manfacedbulls.wordpress.com/

Nick

[Molinari]

Found this image while researching river-god iconography.  I think it is clear that the iconography of Greek river gods stems from earlier Near Eastern traditions:

Image Info: Royal Harp.  Wood, variously ornamented with gold and mosaic inlay [upper part of inlay pictured], height 47 1/4".  c. 2650 B.C.  From Ur.  University Museum, Philadelphia. (J. Du Ry, C. Art of the Ancient Near and Middle East. New York: Harry N. Abrams, 1969, p.55)

[Molinari]

The plot thickens.  Today I found what I believe might be the earliest man-faced bull, from Karanovo VI culture:

Vessel in the form of a winged man-bull. Terracotta with red and white paint. Karanovo Culture, Neolithic (5th mill. BCE). From Goljam Izvor, Bulgaria. Height 16 cm Inv. 223 Hist.District Museum, Razgrad, Bulgaria

I know that scholars have looked for and not found the exact connection between the Greek man-faced bull and the Near Eastern lamassa (winged man-faced bull, sometimes seen on the coinage of Asia Minor) but perhaps there is a common origin that pre-dates both!

[slokind]

Considering continuity in Danubian and pre-Greek peninsular cultures, but also considering early farmers' experience of rivers: rushing in spate, untamable, fertilizing of fields when inundating them, I must agree with your suggestion.  Of course, proving it (or even practically proving it) would want much more than a single example, and continuity in Karanovo contexts, in successor contexts in Danublian lands, and in Helladic contexts down to and including early Archaic (i.e., c. 8th century BCE).  Bull identities in myths full of other indications of very deep grass roots (cf. the story of Semele) also should be considered.  Also remember that an idea like this one (the bull-headed river) may be continuous in Asia Minor and on to Mesopotamia as well as in Danubian and pre-Greek Helladic.  At any rate, I would be ready to entertain a more than "orientalizing" (viz, from trade and trading colonies of the eastern Mediterranean lands).
Mind-muddling though it is, a trip through A. B. Cook's Zeus, not limited to its index, might interest you.
Pat L.

[Taras]

Some days ago I visited the Museum of Antiquities in Turin.
In the Cypriot collection an object caught my attention.
I think it's a man-faced bull.
The object is dated circa 2000 b.C.
I took the pics with a phone, so the quality is bad.

[Molinari]

Interesting creature.  It could also be a cat.  Were there many cats in the exhibit?

[Taras]

No cats in the Cypriot collection.
Probably my bad photos can be confusing, but it seemed to me that there were horns on the head, and not the ears.