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Author Topic: islamic ??  (Read 2259 times)

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Offline Johnny

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islamic ??
« on: April 30, 2008, 08:11:27 pm »
Islamic ?  ..it could be Ottoman too I guess..  in all honesty,  I don't have a clue...LOL  not even sure onthe orientation or sides..

AE ( could be billon also ) 12 mm  0.6 grams

Manzikert

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Re: islamic ??
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2008, 06:22:05 pm »
Hi Ray

I think this is the core of a contemporary fake (fourre) Ottoman akche: I am pretty sure the type is only used on the silver.

I'm afraid I can't make out enough to suggest whose coins it is a fake of though :(

The pictures should be rotated 180 degrees.

Best wishes

Alan

Offline Johnny

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Re: islamic ??
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2008, 08:58:59 pm »
Thanks Alan


So this is a Ottoman coin.  Hopefully  with the new pics

I modified the pics a bit  with my high tech artistic skills  ;)  LOL  ok  so I'm  not an artist  :)

but hopefully  it will help towards the ID

thanks again

cheers


khingila

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Re: islamic ??
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2008, 05:57:16 pm »
I agree. My best guess is that your coin is some sort of imitation (counterfeit) akche. The design is roughly similar similar to this type of Murad II (1421-1451):

http://www.zeno.ru/data/1398/268834_bursa.JPG

The legends, date and mint are badly blundered. I suspect your coin is from Bulgaria, which is not only the largest source of ancient coins in the market these days, but was an Ottoman territory with a largely non-Turkish population, making such illiterate copies easy to pass into circulation.

Offline Johnny

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Re: islamic ??
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2008, 09:48:53 pm »
Thanks DLT

your reply was very interesting  and informative

A fouree akche  ???  would this be the proper terminology  for this coin ?



cheers

khingila

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Re: islamic ??
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2008, 11:22:47 pm »
Anything but "limes" akche... ::)

khingila

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Re: islamic ??
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2008, 11:38:09 pm »
Actually, I would probably refer to it as a plated or base akche imitation. Somehow fourree seems more appropriate with classical coins, though it may be technically correct.
--Dave

Cibalia

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Re: islamic ??
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2008, 02:10:04 am »
A fouree would be base metal put into a silver skin. Plated base metal is very different.

khingila

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Re: islamic ??
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2008, 03:54:40 pm »
Plated, fourree and "put in a silver skin" are numismatically synonymous. Fourree (literally "stuffed") is the French term for a base metal coin with a silver skin, i.e. plated with silver or sandwiched with silver foil before striking.  "Plated" is the corresponding English term. One also sometimes sees the Latin subaeratus, again synonymous.

With the coin here, it isn't clear to me from the photo whether the coin was actually plated, or whether it might have been struck from a base but whitish alloy.

--Dave

Cibalia

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Re: islamic ??
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2008, 01:09:54 am »
Andrew Burnett in the Spinks book 'Coinage in the Roman World' explains that a fouree  is a coin where the silver skin is made first, then filled with base metal.
A plated coin is the reverse of this action, applying silver to the outside of a base metal coin.

khingila

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Re: islamic ??
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2008, 02:50:45 am »
As a practical matter, fourree is used today to describe any plated imitation. The original French means something like "stuffed". As described by Boon (CCRB,1988, p. 111ff), an original coin is placed in a fold of silver foil and that between two plates of lead. A heavy blow leaves an exact impression in the foil and the lead then provides a supporting cushion when molten base metal is then pured into the foil clamshell. Plated or fourree coins were also die-struck, which produces a much less-detectable plated copy, others were hot-dipped; some with copper cores, others with iron cores. Even plated dupondii with lead cores are known! In major collections and auctions as well as in the inventories of many dealers (including my own), you will find coins produced by all of these methods (with the possible exception of plated aes) described as fourree, which seems a quite reasonable use of the term. One rarely knows for certain by exactly what technique a coin was plated. The important point is that it is a plated counterfeit, by whatever method. Fourree conveys that meaning. One also sees subaeratus sometimes, all interchangeable. Where I generally draw the line is with base metal coins which are not plated per se but struck in a high-tin bronze or other alloy which would have appeared whitish when new. This was my concern with the imitation akche discussed above. I couldn't be sure from the photo whether it was actually a plated fourree or another sort of base imitation. I do understand your purist peeve, however. I cringe whenever I see the term "limes denarius" but that's another thread...

I also generally like fourree with two r's and the accent over the first "e" but I couldn't find a way to get the accent mark even though every other symbol known to man sees to be available  :)

-- Dave

Offline Raymond

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Re: islamic ??
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2008, 11:53:43 am »
... I couldn't find a way to get the accent mark even though every other symbol known to man sees to be available  :)
-- Dave

Tangentially, [Alt]130 = é  => fourrée.   Why is it feminine? Une pièce fourrée?
Raymond
Raymond
(Tetricus is not a game)

 

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