What happened to all the gladii?

[Bill S]

... While the oriental (specifically Japanese) technique of folding the metal resulted in a much harder cutting edge, it also created a much more brittle sword, they break very easily.

Interestingly, the Japanese police force of the samurai era recognized this and developed a weapon - the jitte or jutte - for neutralizing the sword.  It's basically an iron bar with a short arm running parallel to the bar.  It was used to trap a sword in mid strike, at which point it would be sharply twisted, breaking the sword.  Somehow I don't picture this working as well with a gladius or English sword.

[IhsantheCursed]

... While the oriental (specifically Japanese) technique of folding the metal resulted in a much harder cutting edge, it also created a much more brittle sword, they break very easily.

Interestingly, the Japanese police force of the samurai era recognized this and developed a weapon - the jitte or jutte - for neutralizing the sword.  It's basically an iron bar with a short arm running parallel to the bar.  It was used to trap a sword in mid strike, at which point it would be sharply twisted, breaking the sword.  Somehow I don't picture this working as well with a gladius or English sword.

Yes. Its my understanding that a Jitte closely resembled the fabled Sai of Japanese lore. Yes...lol..It wouldnt work against any sword other than a Kitana or other Jap sword.

[Agrippa1]

Very intresting question.
I did some "research" because I was very lucky to be able to obtain a Roman Gladius Pompeii type.

I think (like Lordbest) that Roman swords aren't seen very often because most of them were used until they broke down. For the people in those days it was a very valuable item because they could protect their lives with it.

But there are more Roman swords around than you might expect.

On:
http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Attack.html
there are some very nice examples.

Best,

Jos

[IhsantheCursed]

Very intresting question.
I did some "research" because I was very lucky to be able to obtain a Roman Gladius Pompeii type.

I think (like Lordbest) that Roman swords aren't seen very often because most of them were used until they broke down. For the people in those days it was a very valuable item because they could protect their lives with it.

But there are more Roman swords around than you might expect.

On:
http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Attack.html
there are some very nice examples.

Best,

Jos

Thanks for the link Agrippa, very cool stuff indeed. Boy some of those swords have certainly deteriorated. I would think many would have survived in better condition. I know the were made from lower grade materials than the coins, but jeeez.

[mwilson603]

They are found from time to time.  See https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=44662.0 for one a friend of mine found a week or two ago.

regards

Mark

[Robert_Brenchley]

it wouldn't make any sense to claim that Roman swords were purely for thrusting, given the situation in which they were likely to be used. In a close press of men, you're going to hack at the enemy any way you can, and never mind technique. Very few people are going to be exposing themselves to swordthrusts unnecessarily, and they'll be hyped up, probably terrified. Science will be the last thing on their minds!

[vic9128]

Science will be the last thing on their minds!

It would have less to do with science and more to do with drill...countless hours of military drilling. The way a soldier used a weapon would become part of his muscle memory. The trained Roman soldier would hardly have had to think about what to do, it would be a reflex. Even in the military today, drill is important. We practiced things like marching and 16 count manual of arms until we could do them in our sleep-- and we frequently did!

[LordBest]

You could certainly block a blow from a Western sword with an iron bar, and you may break it if you are lucky (any sword can break, even those made by master craftsmen) but you would have to be lucky. More likely you would put a bur in the blade then get a major extremity lopped off as the swordsman will be able to move his sword faster than you can move a metal bar.
                                                                     LordBest.

[basemetal]

I always love when one of my posts generates this many replies. 
There is an "urban myth" out there generated during the second World War, about how a real samauri sword could chop through a machine gun barrel.  Really. You can look it up.
Ahh...it's not true. 
Weapon myths abound.   They are generated both from the users and even more from the (victorious) enemy.
"Why, them Japs had swords that even the officers carried that could chop thru a machine gun barrel".
"We still kicked their asses on Iwo Jima".
I say this as a proud son of a WWII veteran.
The U.S. air force has similar myths. 
"A Mig 15 can do barrel rolls around a Sabre in a dive and still come up at his six and wax him".
But we shot down 15 of them for every one of ours"
Until a defector donated a MIG 15 and disproved all that. At least the barrel roll part. They didn't have pressure suits either.
"Those damn Parthians have a sword that will chop a gladius in two if you ever get in single combat. And don't even mention those those f....ing savages beyond the divine Hadrian's wall.
They have these big swords that will cleave through any armour".....you get my drift.
The enemy always has big scary weapons that are almost superhuman...until we through grit, patriotism, and pure spunk defeat them.

Bruce
Basemetal

[Bill S]

Yes. Its my understanding that a Jitte closely resembled the fabled Sai of Japanese lore. Yes...lol..It wouldnt work against any sword other than a Kitana or other Jap sword.

There are some similarities between the Sai and the Jutte, and some differences.  The Sai was actually Okinawan, and was a farm tool that the people who were forbidden arms learned to use as a weapon.  The Jutte was specifically designed for its role as a weapon.  Sort of the samurai police equivalent of the night stick.  The Sai had a long central bar and two widely set lateral bars.  The Jutte was a long bar with a short single bar close to and parallel to the long bar.  Both were pretty short compared to a sword - about the length of a man's forearm.  To face a swordsman with either of these took quite a bit of skill.

[mwilson603]

Weapon myths abound.   They are generated both from the users and even more from the (victorious) enemy.

Too true Bruce.

During the first Gulf war, President Bush claimed the Raytheon's Patriot Missile system success rate at approx 97% interception.  THe allies felt great about such an amazing defensive weapon, and morale was boosted in the front lines with the fear of a successful scud missile attack now negligable.

In 1992, after stringent post war analysis of the actual success rate, the House Government Operations Subcommittee on Legislation and National Security reported "The public and the United States Congress were misled by definitive statements of success issued by administration and Raytheon representatives during and after the war". *

It is now believed that the success rate was possibly as low as 0%, and it shows that even today, how easily a weapons myth can start. 

regards

Mark
* Statement copied from Wikipedia, and reported widely elsewhere.

[LordBest]

Part of it, in regards to Western swords, is the fascination people have for Samurai. Fair enough, they are fascinating, but a lot of people like to take it too far and disparage Western swords and swordsmanship as inferior, which is absolutely not the case. "Hey those Samurai swords are so cool, much prettier than our swords. Much better too, I hear they can shop ten men in half in one stroke!" etc. Then you get the absurd 'knight/landsknecht vs samurai' debates.
One of my favourite weapon myths is an account in a medieval Arabic source ( I believe) detailing an embassy from Constantinople to the Caliph in Baghdad. The Caliph had been sent a few Roman/Byzantine swords to show the superiority of Roman weaponry. He ordered them stacked in a pile, then drew his own Eastern-make sword and in one blow cut right through the dozen or so Roman swords. Great piece of propaganda, but even with the finest Damascus blade and a particularly terrible batch of Roman iron swords this is not at all feasible.
                                                                   LordBest.

[IhsantheCursed]

Yes. Its my understanding that a Jitte closely resembled the fabled Sai of Japanese lore. Yes...lol..It wouldnt work against any sword other than a Kitana or other Jap sword.

There are some similarities between the Sai and the Jutte, and some differences.  The Sai was actually Okinawan, and was a farm tool that the people who were forbidden arms learned to use as a weapon.  The Jutte was specifically designed for its role as a weapon.  Sort of the samurai police equivalent of the night stick.  The Sai had a long central bar and two widely set lateral bars.  The Jutte was a long bar with a short single bar close to and parallel to the long bar.  Both were pretty short compared to a sword - about the length of a man's forearm.  To face a swordsman with either of these took quite a bit of skill.

I dont know about the Jitte , but a Sai can be thrown also. Its small enough. Which would be one obvious advantage over your standard Kitana.

[*Alex]

How well made were Roman swords?
 
The quote below is from Book 16 of my favourite Roman writer, Ammianus Marcellinus.

"The favour of a beneficent providence was on our side. Our men hacked at the backs of the retreating foe, and when, as sometimes happened, their swords bent and they had nothing to strike with, they seized the weapons of the barbarians and thrust them into their vitals."

Alex.

[IhsantheCursed]

How well made were Roman swords?
 
The quote below is from Book 16 of my favourite Roman writer, Ammianus Marcellinus.

"The favour of a beneficent providence was on our side. Our men hacked at the backs of the retreating foe, and when, as sometimes happened, their swords bent and they had nothing to strike with, they seized the weapons of the barbarians and thrust them into their vitals."

Alex.

Thank you Alex. That quote certainly gives us much to consider when continueing with this discussion.