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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Identification Help (Moderators: Steve Minnoch, Varangian, casata137ec)  |  Topic: unknown provincial , 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: unknown provincial ,  (Read 2454 times)
Johnny
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« on: February 21, 2008, 03:09:45 pm »

As the title states,  I am still learning the provincial coins ,  and how to read them properly.  This coin was won at auction,  and at the time  I was 100 % sure of the ID,  but now that it is in hand,  I have no clue.

the coin itself is AE  3.8 grams  20 mm
OBV  ::  ----- Greek_Omicron Greek_Mu Greek_Delta Greek_Alpha Greek_Nu Greek_Tau Greek_Omicron Greek_Nu Greek_Iota Greek_Nu ----- .Laureate, draped and cuirassed bust right
REV  ::   Greek_Theta_2 Greek_Omicron Greek_Upsilon_2  Greek_Rho Greek_Iota  Greek_Alpha Greek_Tau Uupsidedown Greek_Nu.  Figure standing left with ____helmet, holding ____ leaning on spear.   Greek_Lambda in left field   Greek_Alpha in right field

as I said,  I bought this coin believing it was Caracalla,  but now I am not sure at all as I cannot match the reverse,  or the obverse for that matter..

I'll be posting some more pics  with the letters I see drawn on it in a few minutes,  but for now,  here are the scanner pics


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Jochen
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2008, 03:16:10 pm »

Hi!

Your coin is from Thuria on the Peloponnesus.

Best regards
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Johnny
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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2008, 03:17:14 pm »

Thanks Jochen,

 I am not trying to be sarcastic, but I honestly  have no Ideal what that means
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Johnny
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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2008, 03:20:19 pm »

here are the modified pics,  in case they are needed
there are also,  what I believe  2 items in the top left field,  one  should be victory on globe  and the second is  unknown (  probably  just die break,  or pitting)
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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2008, 03:20:52 pm »

You read the ethnic correctly and Jochen already gave you the mint: the coin was struck by the Greek city of Thouria (which was located on the Peloponnesus) for Caracalla, 198-211 AD. I can add that it is similar to BCD 834.4 (same reverse die, apparently unpublished). The figure is Athena standing front, head left, holding Nike in right and spear in left hand.

Lars
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Johnny
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« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2008, 03:27:45 pm »

Thanks for clarifying this Lars


LOL  I was in no way  trying to doubt Jochen,  but I am just starting my trek into provincials,  and had never heard of Thuria, or Peloponnesus,

I Thank you both for the quick and helpful replies.

cheers
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Jochen
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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2008, 03:30:47 pm »

The obv. legend is something like AVTO MAR ANTWNIN. The coins have always L - A in the rev. field, but I don't know what that means. It could be a honouring title, an abbreviation of LAKEDAIMON??? Peloponnesus is the famous Greek peninsula where Sparta (Lakedaimon) and Olympia is located.

Best regards
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Johnny
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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2008, 03:44:40 pm »

This is going to lead to some interesting reading. 

looking at the obverse ( wich  BTW  you have found the missing letters  ) ,  could the legend be AVTO MAR ANTONINO ?

and If I may,  I have a few more questions

1. meaning  of AVTO MAR
2.   Greek_Theta_2 Greek_Omicron Greek_Upsilon_2 Greek_Rho Greek_Iota Greek_Alpha Greek_Tau Uupsidedown Greek_Nu  ,  this is the spelling  of Thouria  ?
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Johnny
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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2008, 03:52:50 pm »

ok  so the correct attribution  should be  (  and please correct me if I am wrong )


Caracalla
AE  20 mm  3.8 grams , 198-211 AD
OBV  ::  AVTO MAR ANTONINO . Laureate, draped and cuirassed bust right of Caracalla
REV  ::   Greek_Theta_2 Greek_Omicron Greek_Upsilon_2 Greek_Iota Greek_Rho Greek_Iota Greek_Alpha Greek_Tau Uupsidedown Greek_Nu . Athena standing facing, head left, holding Nike in right and spear in left hand.    Greek_Lambda in left fieldGreek_Alpha in right field
Minted in Thouria, Peloponnesus , Greece
REF  ::  BCD 834.4 ( VAR ) with unpublished reverse die
 Greek_Lambda Greek_Alpha in the field, indicating that Thuria, although geographically situated in Messenia, belonged at this time politically to Laconia (cf. Paus. iv. 31. 1).


how does that sound  ?
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Jochen
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« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2008, 03:53:58 pm »

Hi Johnny!

Yes, that's correct! Here some additional informations:

AVTO is short for AVTOKRATOR and this is the Greek translation of IMPERATOR. It is typically for provincial coins that their legends are in Greek!
MAR is short for MARKOC = MARCUS. So the obv. legend is translated to Latin IMP MARCVS ANTONINVS.

The ethnic usually is grammatically Genitivus Pluralis. So QOVRIATWN means '[issued] of the people of Thouria (Latin = Thuria)'

Please mention my transcription of Greek letters: Q is Theta, W is Omega and so on!

Best regards
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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2008, 03:56:06 pm »

thanks again Jochen

you  and Lars  never cease to amaze me..

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Steve Minnoch
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2008, 04:06:27 pm »

See
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/peloponnesus.html#Thuria

For an explanation of the Λ-Α

Steve
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Jochen
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2008, 04:09:52 pm »

Thanks, Steve, for the advice! Highly appreciated!

Best regards
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Johnny
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2008, 04:29:23 pm »

yes indeed,   thanks steve

if I read this correctly  the references  should read as for coin 27 on this plate

 http://www.snible.org/coins/bmc/peloponnesus/23.html

BCD 834.4 ( VAR ),  BMC 7(var ), Sear GIC 2501(var ).  <<<<<<<<<the ( var ) is due to the unpublished reverse  with Athene holding nike

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHGGHHHH,   these provincial  are going to give me an ulser   LOL,  but they are  fun   Smiley



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Steve Minnoch
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2008, 04:41:18 pm »

No, BMC 7 (var) GIC 2501(var) wouldn't be appropriate, as the reverse type is completely different

var is used for much smaller differences ... e.g. a minor difference in the legends, different bust type, minor reverse detail, but not for a depiction of a completely different entity.

Steve
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Johnny
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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2008, 05:00:12 pm »

So as far as references go,  should it read  unpublished ?,   unlisted reverse ?
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Steve Minnoch
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2008, 05:15:21 pm »

Some people might put "apparently unpublished" but personally I'd just leave it blank.  Unless you can check every relevant book how can you claim "unpublished"?  I have seen some dealers list the major references they have checked as on this (unrelated) link, which is a more honest way imo.
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=91221&AucID=98&Lot=198

Steve
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Johnny
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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2008, 05:19:25 pm »

very good point Steve,  thanks

I'll leave the reference blank,  and state the ones checked
One final question,  are on-line references acceptable, or just published references in this situation ?

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Steve Minnoch
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« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2008, 05:28:05 pm »

It's really up to you.  I think only a real stick-in-the-mud would complain about an online reference if that is all that is available.

Steve
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Johnny
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« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2008, 05:50:27 pm »

Thanks again Steve

cheers
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« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2008, 06:52:28 pm »

Two very good teachers.  And Provincials are very good teachers, too.  One must be as exact as possible, but Provincials teach us what is and what is not possible, especially in the case of a place the size of Thouria, a place that never wrote any history for itself and, I daresay, had very few inscriptions.  But, especially when you start studying them all in relation to each other and to the larger places around them and reading Pausanias, who did go to a lot of small places as well as large ones, the coins can give you a much enriched idea of what history actually is.
As for the Peloponnesos, or -us, you can start with Wiki!
I read this thread with real pedagogical pleasure!
Pat L.
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Johnny
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« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2008, 06:05:27 am »

Thanks Jochen

I am looking forward to reading up on this.  although I think finding references on Thuria will be challenging in itself
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george s
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« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2009, 11:36:37 am »

Hallo!
May I Know your  email? I need it.
Thanks
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Frans Diederik
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« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2009, 07:49:45 am »

Hi George,
You can click on a member's name and then personal details appear and you can send someone a mail.


Frans
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Rupert
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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2009, 01:16:11 pm »

One tiny correction: It's probably not MAR ANTONINOS but M (AUR) ANTONINOS with the AVP in ligature, as Johnny has drawn correctly in his picture.

Rupert
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Identification Help (Moderators: Steve Minnoch, Varangian, casata137ec)  |  Topic: unknown provincial , « previous next »
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