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Author Topic: Strange garment indentations  (Read 6081 times)

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Offline Jochen

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Strange garment indentations
« on: January 16, 2008, 04:16:13 pm »
Hi!

Here I have a coin with a question.

Macrinus, AD 217-218
AE 27, 13.4g
struck under legate Furius Pontianus
obv. AV K OPEL CEVH MAKREINOC K M OPEL / ANTWNEI / NOC (RE ligate)
Confronted busts of Macrinus, draped and cuirassed, laureate, r., and
Diadumenian, bare-headed, l.
rev. VP PONTIAN - O - V MARKIANOPOLI and in field l. and r. T / WN
Demeter(?), in long garment (and veiled?), stg. r., resting with r. hand on
scepter and holding grain-ears(?) in l. hand
in upper r. field E (for pentassarion)
AMNG I/1, 725 (1 ex. in München); Hristova/Jekov 6.24.5.1 (R5); Varbanov (engl.) 1262 (has in error AMNG 725 listed as #1263!)
very rare, about VF, nice green patina

Now the r. border of the garment has strange indentations from the hip to the foot. At first I thought that this phenomena could be a kind of corrosion. But the coins depicted in Hristova/Jekov and in Varbanov show the same indentations.

Anyone who has a suggestion for this? Any opinion highly appreciated!

Best regards

Offline wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2008, 06:02:42 pm »
The sharper coin illustrated in Hristova-ZHekov seems to show Demeter wearing a two-piece outfit, rather than just a long garment, with a fringe down one side of the skirt.  Did two-piece costumes of this type exist at the time?
This reminds me of the busts for Macrinus, Diadumenian, and Elagabalus with fringed paludamentum shown on coins from this city, one of which I will repost below (no stranger to you as it used to be yours, I think).  Pat L. has found a bust of Antoninus Pius with such a fringe, by the way, so it is not a new fashion phenomenon.  When I get the time, I have another costume question, this time no fringe, but a seemingly immodest costume of Hecate.
Hwaet!
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Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2008, 06:05:54 pm »
A dumb idea, maybe, but stripes?

Offline Jochen

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2008, 06:19:22 pm »
Another dumb idea: a leg in plaster!  ;D

Offline slokind

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2008, 08:02:57 pm »
One of the clearest of many specimens showing this trait is on the pentassarion that is no. 21 on my "Singular Dies" webpage.  For the present question, we can consider it alone.  Attached.  Considering that it is always on the vertical hanging edge of a garment, and as I recall only a feminine garment, I am inclined to equate it (by rote copying from who knows what specific antecedents) with the 'blanket stitching' that is exploited most famously in one of the ateliers at work on the Parthenon frieze, not only to be decorative but to help emphasize which edge is which: which relief line represents a hemmed edge.  On these coins, I suspect that in the minds of the engravers it is meant (if anything consciously) to suggest good classical associations.  That is what I THINK it is.  My research on this question consisted of many hours of going through all the best picture books I could find of Classical and post-Classical sculpture, but, of course, if we had any text sources, I'd have tried to hunt them down.  I did study Margarete Bieber's early works on Greek garments; she went to great lengths to emulate, even ordering hand-woven and hand finished fabrics and hem weights such as Athens actually had.  In French Léon Heuzey did much the same.  Hanging like that, the blanket-stitched hemming of woolen cloth was the only answer that made sense to me.  Of course, it is way out of scale as we have it on the coins.
The long fringe on the military cloak, whether on the bust of Antoninus Pius from the Athenian Agora, or on the illustrious-looking Severan general in Munich (Illus 01 on my Longinus page, for the same Diadumenian Haimos just posted), or on that die of Diadumenian himself or others of his father, is real fringe, not just a convention, and is rendered pretty much to scale with the real thing.  In my opinion, it is a rendering NOT identifiable at all with the one of this thread, which also is of a different kind, a different and more conventional rendering, not based on familiarity with the real thing.
Pat L.
P.S. On Jochen's coin (whichever specimen) she wears a peplos with a folded overfall.  They had garments in more than one piece, but not skirls and blouses.

Offline Jochen

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2008, 12:25:50 pm »
Thanks, Pat, for your deep insights! I confess, I'm not totally convinced (because of the size disproportion), but it is an interesting possibility.

Best regards

Offline slokind

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2008, 01:30:02 pm »
Well, "depth" is not quite relevant.  Either its aetiology is a treatment of a hem or selvage of woolen cloth, or it is just folk-art embellishment.  As I was at pains to point out, the 'research' on this kind of a question cannot be other than looking at all the reality-based representations that time has left to us.  We simply do not possess any die-engravers' handbooks; if they ever had existed, they probably would not have been copied in scriptoria supplying (to be blunt) textbooks and, like maps carried on shipboard in the centuries of exploration, would have been worn out in use in workshops, not deposited in libraries.  Besides, it would have been the best paid, most highly regarded engravers engaged for medals and aurei who, if anyone, would have been an ancient Benevenuto Cellini, not a Danubian or Pontic engraver.  We do have some knowledge of the sizes and shapes of woven cloth that were draped.  Generally, whole cloth was draped, because ancient weaves would unravel quickly and badly if cut out or shorn, or seamed by hand, for that matter.  Since 'blanket-stitch' may be only American, Webster's Collegiate says, "a buttonhole stitch with spaces of variable width used on materials too thick to hem" and dates it from 1880.  I attach the dictionary's drawing.  Pat L.

Offline Bacchus

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2008, 01:35:58 pm »
Could it be 'based' on the stitching idea - but exaggerated as coins are really too small to show that much detail.  A master engraver (at some stage) showed how it was possible to portray the idea and the students, or journeymen engravors just followed his lead thereafter?

Malcolm

Offline slokind

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2008, 01:46:03 pm »
Yes, Malcolm, I think so, only there are a couple of other considerations: (a) it isn't a continuous tradition but occurs especially on some of the coins in question at this time, and (b) there probably were intermediaries, such as sketches of decorative reliefs or simplified renderings in mosaic, say, still large but gross, compared with painting, owing to the medium, or, certainly, replicas of well known statuary or reliefs that showed it, more or less faithfully, which the die-engravers picked up without understanding, or pseudo-Classical Hadrianic to Severan artworks, like the reliefs from Herodes Atticus's Loukou villa, in a style picked up on the medals of the 2nd century, artworks that might have been shipped all over the Mediterranean, or Danubian attempts at such things, some of which can be seen in Bulgarian museums.
There is so much lost information, whether textual or figural!
Pat L.

Offline hannibal2

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2008, 01:57:19 pm »
Hello,

Could it be that it is a reference to 'torn' clothes (and repaired)? There is an allusion to wearing torn clothing in the procession to Eleusis ( see Jstor on net).

But I may have got this wrong.

Rgds

cr

Offline Jochen

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2008, 03:18:16 pm »
That's a very interesting idea which we should go after! Sadly I have no access to Jstor.

Best regards

Offline wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2008, 06:10:34 pm »
Yes, Hannibal, perhaps you (or someone else with access to JSTOR) could share this allusion with us here.  Cheers, George Spradling
Hwaet!
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Offline slokind

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2008, 08:09:13 pm »
We'd be happy to do so, but think how may listed articles one would have to go through with no keyword more explicit than "Eleusis": no author, no title, no date.  Not even mention of where he found the link.
I don't believe it, anyhow, because my little Homonoia certainly doesn't have a torn garment, just an unusual vertical edge.  Likewise Jochen's Demeter.  The detail is commonest on figures like Homonoia, so it seems less likely that sharing it occasionally with a Demeter should lead us to an obscure detail about Eleusiniana.
Just give me the means of finding it, though, and I'll download it--unless of course it's in some recent journal that does not permit downloads by anyone, even academics, even the libraries themselves.
Pat L.

Offline hannibal2

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2008, 04:29:50 pm »
Sorry for the haste in the earlier post.

The idea about torn clothing came from remembering that Demeter, after the loss of Kore, roamed distraught without a care for herself. I used the link words “Demeter-torn clothes” and variations on that.
One of the hits was Jstor---
Paste-------Review: Blaydes's Ranae
Reviewed Work(s): Aristophanis Ranae. Annotatione critica, commentario exegelico, et scholiis Graecis instruxit by Fredericus H. M. Blaydes ---end of paste.

You get the first page. (No I don’t have full access either but you try to make the most with what’s available) However there is a hint in that one page of a possible link (it mentions the wearing of torn clothes in the procession).

There are parallels. The Eleusis celebration occurs in September. That is harvest time. The Demeter Kore duality appears to be a personification of the corn/cereals (JGFraser and others). Demeter the mother is ragged (the harvested/treshed corn??). Kore returns (the new seed, the corn ear??)

The coin does seem to (or better imagined) depict a ragged Demeter with the new corn ears, but the relation of the above to the coin is only speculative.

cr

Offline wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2008, 05:55:55 pm »
The idea of ritually torn clothing (and/or flesh) is hardly unknown (whatdoyacallem, "blasphemy seams?"), but the costume worn on these coins is neat, with no indication of tears at the breast (to me, the most logical place to tear, or show tearing), just a neat line of hash marks down the lower part of the costume.  The representation of stitching seems the most likely cause IMO.  The pose is hardly distraught, as well.  And the appearance of this feature on coins featuring Homonoia, as Pat L. points out, hardly supports the Demeter Eleusis connection.  Cheers, George S.
Hwaet!
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Offline Jochen

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2008, 06:30:35 pm »
I agree! The fact that this phenomena appears on clothes of Homonoia too is a irrefutable argument against the theory of the Eleusinian games.

Best regards

Offline Jochen

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2008, 06:33:26 pm »
And this should be post #100000!

Best regards

Ghengis_Jon

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2008, 02:21:19 pm »
I think she's wearing riding chaps with cowgirl fringe... ;D

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2008, 02:33:59 pm »
I suspect that the lines on the leg are meant to indicate folds in the drapery, in the same way that the lines on the cornucopia of Pat's coin clearly indicate the ridges in the horn.

But are there parallels for garments with accordian-like folds covering the legs?
Curtis Clay

Offline slokind

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2008, 07:24:53 pm »
This garment marking continues to puzzle me.  I spent a lot of time trying to make sense of it.  Making sense of draped garments means, by analysis, taking them apart.  I remember half a lifetime ago a book review in the American Journal of Archaeology that pointed out that, if you do so with a neo-classical or neo-archaic sculpture, or sometimes with a provincial version of a deity type, you end up with very odd shapes of 'cloth' of wildly assorted lengths, betraying a carver who did not know the garments and was in some cases unfamiliar with making garments from basic lengths and widths of yardage (so that Socrates' himation very naturally doubles as his blanket).
I can't make sense, even assuming blanket stitching or fringe.
My four-image composite shows a lifetime Alexander's Zeus; a copy in Dresden of Zeus or Hades and a copy in Copenhagen of the famous Nemesis by Agorakritos, a younger disciple of Phidias, and the Nike from an Alexander stater (I hope CA won't mind the pedagogical use of details of two of their images, since there are some coins not in my budget!).  The two male deities wear just an himation in the draping that makes a half-draped god.  The Nemesis is similar, but a lady deity wears a linen chiton under her himation draped just the same way as on the half-nude Zeus or Hades.  The Nike wears a woolen peplos with the overfold, which, as E. Harrison pointed out in a Festschrift article dedicated to Homer Thompson, allowed using the same yardage, by adjusting the overfold, for a half-grown girl or a full grown woman.  Now the three figures with wrapped himation all show, if I read Curtis accurately, the parallel horizontal lines (less schematic in the big statues).
Now, I think that these Homonias and the Demeter that opens the thread wear the peplos.  A shoulder mantle (women don't drape it as a chlamys) is worn by the Homonoia.  So I had to face the challenge of drawing with a mouse using the brush tool in different colors (I meant to make her proper right shoulder, which looks like a sort of sleeve, white rather than gray, because it is REALLY puzzling).  So, I made what I see as mantle pale blue-gray, I made the ridges on the cornucopia ochre, I made the continuous lower edge (which seems to unite the garment) turquoise blue, and I made the puzzling 'dentation' red.
These colored markings should make clear why, at the end, I thought I might be seeing just folk-art decoration of an edge.
But I couldn't make it out as the parallel folds wrapped around a leg, as on the Zeus of the Amphipolis tetradrachm, or those on the Dresden and Copenhagen statues, both very careful replicas, as accurate as such things are.
Now it's someone else's turn to draw with a mouse. 
Pat


Offline curtislclay

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2008, 08:02:00 pm »
I don't know about the details of the garments, but Pat's first three examples with folds down the leg seem to confirm my idea, that the ribbing down the leg on the two coins shown by Jochen and Pat was also meant to indicate folds of the drapery.
Curtis Clay

Offline slokind

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2008, 12:17:13 am »
Once I vowed sincerely, after studying headdresses and garments for evidence of relationships of workshops in other media, when the only coins I knew were the ones illustrating statuary in Richter's Sc & Sc of the Greeks, and everyone thought it was perfectly natural for a girl to study Clothes and Coiffures, that I'd never touch them again.  Who would believe that it was because their variety affords such significant evidence that I'd singled them out?

But the reason I did the Singular Marcianopolis page first was that it provides so many things to compare with Nicopolis.  The Homonoia I posted here is the prettiest one I have from Marcianopolis.

The following, all I dare post when you can find them all just by clicking on all the female personifications and standing goddesses in the list of reverses on the Pontianus-Agrippa page, all show why I permitted myself to consider the rendering of costumes once again; I knew someone would ask!  But the really interesting thing is not just that the real-life clothing that they more or less represent is blatantly alike but that its improbable-seeming rendering is alike, just as the stance and the faces are.  The following are all from Nicopolis with reverses signed Agrippa.
(a) MacrinusHomonoia very similar in every aspect of style and technique to the Marcianopolis one.
(b) MacrinusTyche like Homonoia but for her rudder instead of an altar.
(c) DiadumenianHomonoia, a cruder equivalent to (a).
(d) Macrinus, with the obverse die 'inherited' from Longinus.  Homonoia dressed just the same but in quite a different style  and technique, without all the rows of beads for hair and cornucopia and altar garlands--no altar, either.  This one and some others, not always on well preserved specimens, do look more like fringe.  DOES ANYONE HAVE THIS REVERSE DIE IN VF CONDITION?
Pat L.
There are more, including a Nike, an Athena, and a couple of Hygieia, one at each of the two mints, and you can find them easily in my lists.
But all of these edges do seem too narrow to be folds.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2008, 09:42:08 am »
To me they look like folds, at least until a better explanation can be given!
Curtis Clay

Offline slokind

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2008, 03:45:14 pm »
That's all the evidence I have.  If we had more, we might have an answer.  I've been trying since 2003, when I got the Marcianopolis Homonoia posted above that I compare with Jochen's.  Pat

P.S. I have the .pdf of the review article that Hannibal2 cited above in Reply of Jan. 19 above, from Jstor.  I can attach it to an e-mail to anyone who wants it, but also I'll read it to see what it says.  The "stable URL" to it is:
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0009-840X%28188906%291%3A3%3A6%3C257%3ABR%3E2.0.CO%3B2-Q
and that might get it for you without having the academic ID that is usually demanded.

Offline slokind

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Re: Strange garment indentations
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2008, 01:27:27 am »
While this substantial review by Verrall is probably not germane to our limited question, it is, I think, excellent in its own right and most instructive on the reading of ancient texts, not least clever ones like Aristophanes.  The url only leads to the first page, so I'll send it on an e-mail if anyone wants to read it all (six pages).  Pat L.

 

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