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Author Topic: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa  (Read 11445 times)

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Offline maridvnvm

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A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« on: September 19, 2007, 02:19:04 pm »
I just had to inflict another Emesa coin on you!

Septimius Severus Denarius
Obv:IMP CAE L:dot: SEP SEV PERT AVG, laureate head right
Rev:– LEG XIIII GEM M V / TR P COS, Legionary eagle between two standards, Capricorns shown on standard
Minted in Emesa.

I believe it to be BMCRE -, RIC -, RSC -. Listed in BMCRE for an Aureus but not for a denarius (though I could have missed it!).

Regards,
Martin

Offline curtislclay

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept. Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2007, 02:38:21 pm »
I doubt the mint attribution.  Any other suggestions?
Curtis Clay

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2007, 02:49:53 pm »
Curtis,
I must admit that I didn't doubt the sellers attribution of Emesa until your post. Now I am scratching my head. It doesn't look like any of the Alexandrian dies I have seen and that just leaves Rome. It didn't look as refined as the majority of the Rome examples I have seen though and thus went with the eastern attribution. I didn't do any die comparison with my Emesa first issue dies however. This could be a big lesson to me and my second one tonight!
Regards,
Martin

Offline bpmurphy

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2007, 11:02:32 pm »
Martin,

Your coin is from Rome. The Emesa issues don't have the animals on the standards and the style isn't Emesan. The Alexandrian issues have the animals, but the style isn't Alexandrian either.

Yours is actually the same obverse die as one of my examples.



Barry Murphy

Offline ROMA

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2007, 12:56:44 am »
Barry is right about the standards. Those horse or deer like animals are not present in the emesa version of this coin.
Adversus solem ne loquitor

Offline curtislclay

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept. Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2007, 02:27:13 am »
A note on the capricorns: they were the emblem of the Fourteenth Legion so only belonged on its standards.

At Rome, the standards of LEG XIIII generally have the capricorns, while those of all other legions generally don't.  However, there were mistakes in both directions: occasionally the standards of XIIII omit the capricorns, and quite a few of the other legions also have one or two rev. dies where their standards are wrongly ornamented with capricorns.

At "Emesa", only two legions were commemorated, XIIII and VIII.  The standards of XIIII HAVE capricorns on two aureus dies, BMC pl. 15.8 and Paris, but on denarii the capricorns were omitted.  The rare denarii of VIII correctly omit the capricorns.

All Alexandrian denarii commemorate LEG III and show standards wrongly decorated with capricorns.  Apparently this type was copied from LEG XIIII coins at Rome, and the engravers didn't realize that the capricorns should be omitted if a different legion was named. 

XIIII was far commoner than any other legion on denarii at Rome and was the only legion commemorated on sestertii, because it was stationed at the provincial capital Carnuntum and was the first legion to proclaim Septimius emperor.  This explains also why it was virtually the only legion commemorated at "Emesa" and why Alexandria copied its LEG III type from denarii of LEG XIIII at Rome.
Curtis Clay

Offline curtislclay

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept. Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2007, 11:12:16 am »
In the legionary series of Gallienus the type of LEG XIIII GEM was a capricorn.
Curtis Clay

Offline curtislclay

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept. Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2007, 02:06:08 pm »
Possibly the legionary denarii of Alexandria commemorate the Legio III Augusta of Lambaesis in Africa, detachments of which may have been sent through Tripolitania and Cyrenaica to secure Egypt for Septimius.  Then the capricorns on the standards could be intentional and correct, since that legion was founded by Octavian and the capricorn, Augustus' zodiac sign, is attested as one of its emblems.

The legend on these coins, LEG III IT AVI or LEG III IT AVG, is enigmatic.  The AV or AVG could make it the Third Augustan Legion, but what is the meaning of the intruding IT?
Curtis Clay

Offline ROMA

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2007, 04:42:37 am »
Once again Curtis, fabulous insight!
Adversus solem ne loquitor

Offline mauseus

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2007, 06:27:32 am »
Hi,

I've come to this thread rather late but I have a little thing going on with legionary coins, including a couple of Severan ones. So, my example of a LEG XIIII from Emesa:


Regards,

Mauseus

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2007, 07:27:24 am »
I have COS II and II CO legionary examples from Emesa but I am now hanging my head in shame for my mis-attribution of this example to Emesa instead of Rome. It just goes to show how little I have learned! Perhaps I should return to lurking for a while and building up my knowledge quietly.
Thanks to all for their contributions to this thread.
Regards,
Martin

Offline Rupert

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2007, 03:49:21 pm »
Oh come on!

1. We all are human, and humans tend to make mistakes. Mostly we bury them in our collections, sometimes they become visible here. Some weeks ago, I saw a poorly described double-portrait coin of Ant. Pius and M. Aurelius in mediocre condition and wondered whether this was an as or a sestertius, since I'd like to get a sestertius of these. Since the coin had been photographed on the owner's fingers, I tried to figure out the size and concluded that it was a sestertius, and bought it. I was slightly disappointed to get an as a week later (though a fairly large one at almost 30 mm) - which I could have avoided easily if I had paid any attention to the colour of the coin, which was evidently copper not orichalcum... And I've been collecting for 30 years!

2. Rome or Emesa, this is a beautiful coin.

3. Thanks for your birthday greetings last week!!

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline mwilson603

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2007, 04:04:12 pm »
Since the coin had been photographed on the owner's fingers, I tried to figure out the size and concluded that it was a sestertius

That sounds like a good, logical, approach to the problem.  Now if only you had known that the seller was just 1.2m tall  :laugh: (Sorry, couldn't resist)

Douglas

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2007, 04:48:06 pm »
Martin,

No need to hang your head. Attribution by style is one of the more difficult things to learn as far as I am concerned. You better not start lurking, because I've learned a lot from your postings here. Perhaps it was a mistaken attribution, but certainly worth it, and especially for knowledge gained by everyone who has read it. Barry Murphy's comment regarding the standards is something I never would have learned. And, as Rupert says, this is a fantastic coin regardless.

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2007, 12:20:47 pm »
Rome also seems to have made the mistake of using capricorns for legions other than LEG VIIII. Here is a LEG XI that I used to own showing capricorns! I had to part with it some time back however  :(.



Regards,
Martin

Offline curtislclay

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept. Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2007, 12:55:00 pm »
Yes, this coin illustrates what I said above about mistakes at Rome: "occasionally the standards of XIIII omit the capricorns, and quite a few of the other legions also have one or two rev. dies where their standards are wrongly ornamented with capricorns."
Curtis Clay

Offline Rupert

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2007, 04:19:54 pm »
For MANY years, the stylistic differences between various Roman mints at various times were a book with seven seals to me. And they often still give me a hard time. So, while we're just at it, here's my only legionary denarius of Severus. The style seems neither like Rome nor like Emesa to me, but certainly you can teach me. It's a Leg II Adiut(rix), so it should be from Rome mint (RIC 5). Is it just a strange early style? Please excuse the bad pictures; bright but porous silver coins are the objects that I find hardest to photograph.

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2007, 02:04:15 am »
I suppose it must be Rome.  The only other possibility is an ancient imitation.

II ADIVT seems rare; only two specimens, Vienna and Oxford, in my incomplete cast collection.  BM has one too, but not ill. in BMC, and I don't have a plaster cast of it.
Curtis Clay

Offline El Reye

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2007, 01:27:23 pm »
Question?  Were there any other symbols specific to any of the other legions, as was the case of the capricorns and the XIIII legion.

Cameron
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2007, 02:17:00 pm »
The Wikipedia article Roman Legions has a list of imperial legions with their emblems, dates of foundation, permanent camps, and so on.  One of the main sources for the emblems is the legionary series of antoniniani struck by Gallienus at Milan.

Legio III Augusta gets Pegasus there, so I may be wrong that a capricorn was appropriate for that legion. However in a Bryn Mawr review of a recent book on the displacement of Roman legions I find the following correction by the reviewer:

"p. 18: (about III Augusta) symbol -- pegasus + capricorn instead of
just pegasus"
Curtis Clay

Offline dougsmit

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept. Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2007, 05:01:37 am »
Possibly the legionary denarii of Alexandria commemorate the Legio III Augusta of Lambaesis in Africa, detachments of which may have been sent through Tripolitania and Cyrenaica to secure Egypt for Septimius.  Then the capricorns on the standards could be intentional and correct, since that legion was founded by Octavian and the capricorn, Augustus' zodiac sign, is attested as one of its emblems.

The legend on these coins, LEG III IT AVI or LEG III IT AVG, is enigmatic.  The AV or AVG could make it the Third Augustan Legion, but what is the meaning of the intruding IT?

Sorry I missed this thread when fresh but what is wrong with the old assumption that the IT is the result of a less than literate copy of the Rome mint LEG III ITAL?  Considering the small numbers of these coins and the percentage with missing or crowded legends it is well within reason to think that a copy was made from less than a fully informed position.
More: http://dougsmith.ancients.info/feac44leg.html

Also:

At "Emesa", only two legions were commemorated, XIIII and VIII.  The standards of XIIII HAVE capricorns on two aureus dies, BMC pl. 15.8 and Paris, but on denarii the capricorns were omitted.  The rare denarii of VIII correctly omit the capricorns.
This explains also why it was virtually the only legion commemorated at "Emesa" and why Alexandria copied its LEG III type from denarii of LEG XIIII at Rome.

Are Emesa VIII coins really more rare than the XIIII?  My meager collection is hardly scientific but I  had as much trouble finding XIIII.  Perhaps that is a matter of dealers favoring pretty coins since VIII issues seems to be exceptionally well made on nice flans while the XIIII examples I have seen seem more likely to be dumpy.  Do you have a comment on most VIII coins of this mint being first legend while XIIII include COSII?   Do you still consider it accurate to assign the VIII Emesa issues to the same mint as the COSII/XIIII ones? 

Offline curtislclay

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2007, 01:59:54 pm »
Doug,

It is certainly possible that the Alexandrian mint was simply copying the Roman LEG III ITAL and blundered it to LEG III ITAVI or ITAVG. 

But why select this particular legion from the fourteen commemorated on Roman denarii?  Since these were all Rhine and Danube legions with no connection to Egypt, why not at least select the emperor's favorite, XIIII GEM M V, which had been the first to proclaim him emperor, and whose coins were by far the commonest?  And if instead you chose III ITAL by chance because a denarius commemorating that legion happened to come to your attention, why add capricorns to the standards which were only appropriate to XIIII GEM M V, so implying that you were familiar with coins of that legion too?

Applying the type to LEG III AVG of Lambaesis makes historical sense of the type and explains the capricorns, but runs up against the significant problem of how to explain the IT in the legion's name.  In sum: the type remains enigmatic and without satisfactory explanation!

Certainly XIIII GEM M V is a lot commner than VIII AVG on denarii of "Emesa".  A diligent search would probably produce dozens of XIIII's, but only a handful of VIII's.

Yes, I still consider the Syrian denarii with "obv. legend of 193" to be from the same mint as the COS I, II CO, and COS II ones.
Curtis Clay

Offline dougsmit

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2007, 07:34:41 am »
Doug,

It is certainly possible that the Alexandrian mint was simply copying the Roman LEG III ITAL and blundered it to LEG III ITAVI or ITAVG. 

But why select this particular legion from the fourteen commemorated on Roman denarii?  Since these were all Rhine and Danube legions with no connection to Egypt, why not at least select the emperor's favorite, XIIII GEM M V, which had been the first to proclaim him emperor, and whose coins were by far the commonest?  And if instead you chose III ITAL by chance because a denarius commemorating that legion happened to come to your attention, why add capricorns to the standards which were only appropriate to XIIII GEM M V, so implying that you were familiar with coins of that legion too?

Applying the type to LEG III AVG of Lambaesis makes historical sense of the type and explains the capricorns, but runs up against the significant problem of how to explain the IT in the legion's name.  In sum: the type remains enigmatic and without satisfactory explanation!

Certainly XIIII GEM M V is a lot commner than VIII AVG on denarii of "Emesa".  A diligent search would probably produce dozens of XIIII's, but only a handful of VIII's.

Yes, I still consider the Syrian denarii with "obv. legend of 193" to be from the same mint as the COS I, II CO, and COS II ones.

Why copy III ITAL?  It was a number III just like III AVG so it would be easier to copy for an illiterate cutter.  I have absolutely no 'feel' for questions about how many legionary coins were seen in Alexandria by the time the local dies were cut.  The results suggest they had a III ITAL coin.  Since there is more than one die and all have the erroneous IT, one must wonder at the circumstances.  I've seen worse results from individuals who do not care being given unclear instructions by supervisors who do not understand.   Do note that some III ITAL coins have capricorns.   Before today I only had seen two coins of this legion (mine and the BM illustration) but both had capricorns - hardly scientific - but a Google search turned up a German site with a coin missing them. 
http://www.muenzen-der-severer.de/sept-leg.htm

I'm hesitant to accept too quickly 'error' as the sole cause for these standards variations.   I certainly lack any understanding of the standard 'system' and would have to remain open for there being variations ('parade' standards vs. 'battle' standards?) that would have made sense at the time but flies straight over my head
Trying to discover reason when dealing with things so far in the past and clouded with possible  language issues or plain old confusion can be frustrating.   

Offline curtislclay

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2007, 08:36:33 am »
Doug,

But the III ITAL den. without capricorns that you link to is mint of Rome not Alexandria.

My point was that capricorns are missing from the standards of this legion at Rome, but present at AlexandriaAlexandria didn't simply copy a Roman denarius of this type, but added the capricorns which are a characteristic of XIIII GEM M V.

Yes, I know you are inclined to see hidden meanings in every arbitrary variation on Roman coins.  I think this inclination of yours is mistaken.  In my opinion a lot of variation in detail on Roman coins is due merely to sloppy or inventive individual engravers and has no further significance whatever.
Curtis Clay

Offline dougsmit

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Re: A decent legionary series Sept, Sev. from Emesa
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2007, 10:06:33 pm »
Doug,

But the III ITAL den. without capricorns that you link to is mint of Rome not Alexandria.

My point was that capricorns are missing from the standards of this legion at Rome, but present at Alexandria. Alexandria didn't simply copy a Roman denarius of this type, but added the capricorns which are a characteristic of XIIII GEM M V.

Yes, I know you are inclined to see hidden meanings in every arbitrary variation on Roman coins.  I think this inclination of yours is mistaken.  In my opinion a lot of variation in detail on Roman coins is due merely to sloppy or inventive individual engravers and has no further significance whatever.

My point is you failed to explain the III ITAL in the BM and my coin that both have capricorns.  Are you saying these are not RomeFakes?  Unlike yourself I have not seen hundreds of these coins so I might be misled by the fact that two of the three I have seen have capricorns.  My inclination is to fantasize that a coin like mine served as the model for the Alexandrian cutter who copied the caps and the IT whether they were errors or reflect something you understand better than I.  Do you also contend the difference between AVG and AVI endings at Alexandria are due to error? 


 

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