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Author Topic: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!  (Read 3909 times)

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Offline dpaul7

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Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« on: September 12, 2007, 10:13:16 pm »
Hello!

I just received notification of this video from the Portuguese Coin Forum, and wanted to share with you all!

A new hoard of coins found in England -- Some of the coins looked Islamic to me!  A very interesting video!  I hope you enjoy it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Yg9tRiVFm0&mode=related&search=

dpaul7
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Andalusian

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2007, 02:15:56 am »
Indeed, it is amazing discovery.

The Islamic coins found in this treasure were Abbasid, it is well known fact, the Islamic silver dirhams were the main curreny worldwide in the 9th and 10th century, the vikings loved the muslim silver.

Offline Howard Cole

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2007, 03:01:08 am »
Indeed, it is amazing discovery.

The Islamic coins found in this treasure were Abbasid, it is well known fact, the Islamic silver dirhams were the main curreny worldwide in the 9th and 10th century, the vikings loved the muslim silver.

What an overstatement.  So you are saying that Abbasid coins were used as currency in the whole world.  No way. They were not used in China, Southeast Asia, south of the Sahara in Africa and in many part of Europe, let alone the Americas. 

The Vikings viewed these coins as silver bullion and not currency.  Didn't you see all of the hacksilver in the pot?

Offline AlexB

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2007, 03:20:40 am »
Indeed, it is amazing discovery.

The Islamic coins found in this treasure were Abbasid, it is well known fact, the Islamic silver dirhams were the main curreny worldwide in the 9th and 10th century, the vikings loved the muslim silver.

Haha the Vikings loved all silver...and gold and precious stones and the odd maiden... It is interesting to investigate their trade with the Eastern Med. and also, supposedly, their hire as mercenaries everywhere.

Alex
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Offline LordBest

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2007, 05:33:43 am »
Abbasid silver was prized for its reliable silver content, there are simply massive hoards of it found in Scandinavia, dwarfing any other kind of silver.
                                                                   LordBest. 8)

Offline Howard Cole

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2007, 05:55:22 am »
Additionally, there was a direct trade route to Scandinavia from the Abbasid Empire, up the Volga River.

Andalusian

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2007, 06:31:46 am »
Indeed, it is amazing discovery.

The Islamic coins found in this treasure were Abbasid, it is well known fact, the Islamic silver dirhams were the main curreny worldwide in the 9th and 10th century, the vikings loved the muslim silver.

What an overstatement.  So you are saying that Abbasid coins were used as currency in the whole world.  No way. They were not used in China, Southeast Asia, south of the Sahara in Africa and in many part of Europe, let alone the Americas. 

The Vikings viewed these coins as silver bullion and not currency.  Didn't you see all of the hacksilver in the pot?

Islamic silver dirhams were like the US dollars now, recognized curreny worldwide.

The vikings certainly used them as main currency here in Scandinavia, maybe you need to learn more about the history of the vikings !

Andalusian

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2007, 06:33:36 am »
Abbasid silver was prized for its reliable silver content, there are simply massive hoards of it found in Scandinavia, dwarfing any other kind of silver.
                                                                   LordBest. 8)

Well said, the islamic silver of the abbasid was so sought after, I saw myself hoards of this silver in many scandinavian musuems specially in Sweden, Finland and Denmark.

Manzikert

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2007, 06:46:25 am »
Hi Andalusian

The hoard contained 617 coins, just 7 of which were Abbasid and the other 600 English.

As AlexB says, the Vikings loved silver, and would get it from anywhere they could: in fact many Anglo-Saxon coins such as those of Ethelred the Unready are more commonly found in Scandinavia than in England because of the vast amounts of English money paid to or siezed by the Vikings.

However, to the Vikings the coins, whether Islamic or English, were just silver bullion in conveniently small pieces, to be weighed out in any transaction, not a circulating currency with standard values as they would have been in the Abbasid empire or England.

Alan

Andalusian

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2007, 07:04:05 am »
Hi Andalusian

The hoard contained 617 coins, just 7 of which were Abbasid and the other 600 English.

As AlexB says, the Vikings loved silver, and would get it from anywhere they could: in fact many Anglo-Saxon coins such as those of Ethelred the Unready are more commonly found in Scandinavia than in England because of the vast amounts of English money paid to or siezed by the Vikings.

However, to the Vikings the coins, whether Islamic or English, were just silver bullion in conveniently small pieces, to be weighed out in any transaction, not a circulating currency with standard values as they would have been in the Abbasid empire or England.

Alan

Hello Alan

well said but I was pointing to the fact that Abbasid dirhams were found in England tells a lot about the universality of these dirhams, I was telling that here in Scandinavia, they were main currency, they were even found buried with the chiefs of the vikings.

Manzikert

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2007, 07:33:44 am »
The Islamic coins found in this treasure were Abbasid, it is well known fact, the Islamic silver dirhams were the main curreny worldwide in the 9th and 10th century, the vikings loved the muslim silver.

No, you state above 'it is well known fact, the Islamic silver dirhams were the main curreny worldwide'.

A 'currency' is a group of coins (or other monetary items) which are the sole means of purchasing goods in a particular country: your statement implies that Abbasid coins were used in everyday transactions 'worldwide', which is totally incorrect.

Dirhems were widely accepted in the areas outside the Abbasid empire where they were available as pieces of good silver bullion, but the only area where they can be called 'currency' is within the Abbasid empire.

The overwhelming majority of the coins in the hoard are English pennies, which were the 'currency' of England at the time (c.927 AD) when they were buried.

There are scattered finds of single or small numbers of Islamic coins all over Europe, but they were never widely used even as bullion anywhere but Scandinavia. Small numbers of Spanish Umayyad coins are sometimes found in southern France for instance, but the vast majority which crossed into France would have been quickly melted down and converted into the local 'currency', deniers.

Best wishes

Alan

Andalusian

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2007, 07:37:16 am »
Hello Alan

Maybe I should have said they were accepted worldwide not as I mentiond worldwide curreny.

thank you.

Offline Howard Cole

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2007, 07:53:52 am »
They would be accepted worldwide as any other piece of good silver, not because they were Abbasid. 

I know my history very well since I teach it at the college level, and probably have spent many more years studying it than you.  I think you are the one that needs to take off the blinders that make your view of history very bias.

Offline AlexB

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2007, 11:25:57 am »
The English coin concerned is one of Offa. It is a Gold dinar, copied blatently from the East but with 'Offa Rex' written across middle. You can be sure it was struck because of the dominance and acceptance of these arabic coins in the med. It is fair to say that the East offered many trading opportunities for England and Scandinavia and the luxuries on offer were most prized.

Or it could have been an offerring piece for the Pope - but I doubt it!

Brgds

Alex
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2007, 03:09:38 pm »
Abbasid silver was widely available, good silver, and the Scandinavians were great sailors and traders. Let's not forget that they had a presence in Constantinople. So there's nothing surprising about the hoard having a few dirhams in it. But Islamic currency was never the dominant trade currency in the way that, say, Athens owls were. Everyone was minting their own coin, and as long as a coin was good metal, it was accepted everywhere. Compare the number of Abbasid imitations to the number of imitation owls, and you can see the difference!

The Umayyads in Andalus had a major influence on Western Europe, but the Abbasids, however powerful, had far more influence further east.
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Andalusian

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2007, 03:15:20 pm »
Abbasid silver was widely available, good silver, and the Scandinavians were great sailors and traders. Let's not forget that they had a presence in Constantinople. So there's nothing surprising about the hoard having a few dirhams in it. But Islamic currency was never the dominant trade currency in the way that, say, Athens owls were. Everyone was minting their own coin, and as long as a coin was good metal, it was accepted everywhere. Compare the number of Abbasid imitations to the number of imitation owls, and you can see the difference!

The Umayyads in Andalus had a major influence on Western Europe, but the Abbasids, however powerful, had far more influence further east.

Thank you Robert for the input.

Al Andalus is my passion and speciality, indeed, the umayyad muslims in Spainwere so powerful that many christian kings of Europe sought their approval specially during the reign of Abdul Rahman II in Cordoba, who called himself the one who made Islam victorious ( Al Nasir Ldin Al llah )

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2007, 03:48:29 pm »
More importantly, to me at least, it produced the great scholars of the time; people like Ibn-Rusht (Averroes) and Abu Al-Casim (Abulcasis). It was through Al Andalus that Western Europe was exposed to the works of Aristotle and other Greeks, producing an intellectual upheaval that started to lay the groundwork for the Reformation and everything that followed.
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Andalusian

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2007, 04:16:27 pm »
More importantly, to me at least, it produced the great scholars of the time; people like Ibn-Rusht (Averroes) and Abu Al-Casim (Abulcasis). It was through Al Andalus that Western Europe was exposed to the works of Aristotle and other Greeks, producing an intellectual upheaval that started to lay the groundwork for the Reformation and everything that followed.

Indeed, one American scholar called Maria rosa Menocal wrote incredible book called

The ornament of the world
http://www.amazon.com/Ornament-World-Christians-Tolerance-Medieval/dp/0316566888

I have read it, it is really amazing, recommended for any person who want to know about the history of Al andalus.

Offline ROMA

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2007, 12:04:10 pm »
Andalusian, I think that was completely inappropriate to talk to Howard Cole like that. He has established himself here as quite knowledgable, you have spent very little time here.
And anyways in general terms, any state that produces high quality coins of precious metals are valued elsewhere. Not as currency, but for their buillion value, this to me seems like common sense.
Alexb brought up the the coin that was discovered minted by King Offa but with (upside down) islamic text. I'm of the opinion these coins were minted to make trade easier with some other state, possibly in the med. I was doing some reading about this coin and I came across an opinion I'd never heard before. I dont buy it, but its interesting...
"Al-Kalby is of the opinion that King Offa became a Muslim. He suggests that Offa may have gone to Spain to study the religion or the culture of Muslims and may have become impressed by the Muslim civilization and its grandeur. As a result, he may have accepted Islam by his own choice. King Offa did not conclude any peace treaty or a trade treaty with either Islamic Spain (Andalusia) or with Abbasid Caliph in Baghdad."




Adversus solem ne loquitor

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2007, 04:57:45 pm »
Hi Roma

See https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=40037.0 for a previous thread about the Offa dinar.

I think that it is extremely unlikely that Offa went to Spain (certainly there is no historical record of it, and I think it is almost certain that if he had done so it would be recorded in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle).

I still think that the promised gift to the Pope is the most likely reason for the production of the dinar, and that if it had been any sort of regular issue for trade purposes more would have survived.

Best wishes

Alan

Offline ROMA

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Re: Amazing New HOARD found in England!!!
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2007, 04:50:38 pm »
Forgot about this thread! I agree that they could have been manufactured to for the yearly alms donation, but its possible they were also used for trade, perhaps with Islamic Spain... The reality is these coins would have been useful for trade with a lot of different peoples. It would be nice if more then one was found so we could speculate further, we really never know exactly. If I were Offa I would have started manufacturing my own purely English gold coins. If your gonna write the arabic backwards, and then put your own name on the dang thing anyways, might as well just manufacture your own coin!
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