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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numism  |  Reading For the Advanced Collector  |  Topic: Two rare Eastern denarii of Hadrian 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Two rare Eastern denarii of Hadrian  (Read 73969 times)
maridvnvm
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« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2012, 02:20:11 pm »

I bought the following coin on the basis that it is Eastern (it was sold as Rome mint) and is the common HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS P P, COS III, Aequitas mentioned by Curtis above.

The style is pretty good but doesn't seem to have the refinement of the Rome output, particularly the legends.

Hadrian Denarius
Obv:- HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS P P, laureate bust right
Rev:- COS III, Aequitas standing left, holding scales and cornucopia
Eastern Mint.

Martin

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maridvnvm
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« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2012, 07:54:07 am »

I missed out on this one recently and hoped it would turn up here. It hasn't and so I thought it worth noting.

Martin
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maridvnvm
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« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2013, 12:23:03 pm »

What about this little oddity? Am I correct in attributing it to the eastern mints?

Hadrian Denarius
Obv:- HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS P P, laureate bust right
Rev:- COS III, Genius, draped at waist, standing left, holding patera and cornucopia

The Rome mint examples that are closest to the reverse all have an altar. The style of this looks a bit off for Rome. The lettering and lack of altar make me think it might just be eastern.

It could just as easily be one that I have missed elsewhere or something completely different.

Regards,
Martin

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curtislclay
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« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2013, 06:10:34 pm »

Martin,

I don't doubt the Genius coin is Eastern, though I don't find that obv. die among the many illustrated by Strack.

The letter forms are typical, for example P P at end of obv. legend tending to look like I I, and the slanting S of COS on the reverse. The slightly clumsy style of the types is also typical.

As you say,the Roman model showed an altar before the Genius. Eastern specimens are known accurately copying that type, with altar, Strack *31. Both the Roman model and the Eastern copy with altar are already illustrated above on p. 2 of this thread. Yours is a new variant, with altar omitted.

As to your 5 Aug. 2012 Aequitas coin, yes, also Eastern. The style is clearly non-Roman.

I suspect that all of the P P / COS III Aequitas coins are Eastern, even when the style is Roman. The Eastern mint will have started by borrowing one or more engravers from the mint of Rome, who then trained local staff, before themselves returning to Rome or otherwise retiring. So the style started as exactly Roman, created by Rome-mint engravers, then evolved into provincial style. The Aequitas-Moneta type was appropriate for a monetary innovation, assuring the users that Roman fineness and weight was being strictly maintained! The same phenomenon repeated itself, presumably for the same reason, in Gordian III's second Antioch series of 242-244: the earliest coins are in Rome-mint style and use the Rome-mint draped and cuirassed bust, while the much larger later series uses a cuirassed bust, never found on Rome-mint antoniniani, and is in sloppier style.

The coin below, which I missed a few days ago on eBay, confirms this idea of mine. The style is good enough to be considered Roman, but the rev. legend has been changed from COS III to P M TR P COS III, the form that was used at Rome only from 119 until c. 125. This form could easily have been revived at the Eastern mint after 128, and a number of the Eastern coins shown above prove that it was indeed revived; but such a revival is very unlikely to have occurred at Rome. This coin must be Eastern, despite its Roman style. This P M TR P COS III Aequitas denarius was already known to Strack *59 (12 spec.), correctly classified as Eastern, but I hadn't really been aware of it until this eBay specimen that I missed turned up.
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Curtis Clay
maridvnvm
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« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2013, 03:11:18 pm »

Many thanks Curtis. I am glad that my eyes did not fail me with these. I was fairly sure with the Aequitas/Moneta and more so with the Genius but there was always a shadow of doubt in the back of the mind.

I saw the Aequitas example you illustrate and had put it as Rome based on the good style of the bust but I guess that just shows how difficult this area can be.
Regards,
Martin
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Rupert
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« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2013, 02:50:46 pm »

Recently, I got this low-grade denarius RIC 85fn, but with a well-visible aegis. Weight 2.88 g, die axis 6 o'clock.

Best regards,

Rupert
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maridvnvm
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« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2013, 01:38:00 pm »

Another addition to this thread.

Hadrian Denarius
Obv:- HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS P P bare head right
Rev:- COS III, Virtus,standing right, holding scepter and parazonium; left foot raised, resting on helmet.
Unknown Eastern Mint. Bust style is very well executed.
Reference:- RIC -, cf RSC 355, cf BMC Page 380 #25 (Vienna) (draped bare head bust right) same reverse die though the image is very grainy

Regards,
Martin
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curtislclay
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« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2013, 06:06:50 pm »

This Virtus/Roma rev. type copied from Rome-mint denarii of c. 125-8 AD:
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« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2014, 02:27:43 pm »

And now it's me again with a coin I got these days. It seems that I was the only one to notice this was an Eastern denarius.

Obv. HADRIANUS - AUGUSTUS PP
Laureate and draped bust right
Rev. PMTR - P - COS III
Victory standing right with trophy in both hands
19 mm, 2.99 g, die axis 5 o'clock

The reverse type is copied from RIC 101, but this is described in RIC as "Victory flying", while here she has a clear ground line under her feet. Also, RIC 101 has the earlier obv. legend IMP CAESAR TRAIAN HADRIANUS AUG.

Rupert
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« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2014, 03:19:44 pm »

A neat combination of rare bust type and new reverse type for the series!

The ground line on the reverse is apparently an addition of the Eastern engraver. At Rome there was no ground line, and Victory was evidently meant to be depicted flying.

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« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2014, 10:20:27 am »

Now that's a flying Victory! The Eastern engraver played it safe: He retained Victory's spread wings but added a ground line because - well, you never know when you might need some ground beneath your feet!

Rupert
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« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2014, 12:02:06 pm »

What about this recent addition?

Hadrian Denarius
Obv:- HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS P (sic), Laureate head right
Rev:- COS III, Concordia standing left sacrificing over altar and holding cornucopia. (would this be the correct deity description as I am unable to find something similar)

Dark toned silver with some surface encrustations that I am contemtplating working on.

Martin
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« Reply #62 on: August 11, 2014, 12:50:57 pm »

Hi all

After reading this very interesting discussion..
I hesitating to tell my opinion because I'm not the professional this fiel..
but I try to ask you?
I have some Hadrianus denar in my Hadrianus Gallery and more in my Collection ..

maybe some of them are eastern mint like this :

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-103871

Am I right Huh

Thank you your response .

 Best regards
 Q.
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maridvnvm
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« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2014, 01:55:24 pm »

Another new one for me.

Obv:- HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS P P, Laureate head right
Rev:- COS III, Crescent with five stars. .
Minted in Eastern mint
Reference:- RIC 357 corr. (wrongly attributed to Rome) Cohen 464. BMCRE p. 380 #28 (different dies)
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« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2014, 01:56:49 pm »

Very Nice specimins here i hope one day i'll find one. Eastern mint.
Hadrian collector here.

All the best,

Eric
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All the Best,
Eric
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« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2015, 06:18:33 am »

Hello Curtis and Rest.

i think i found a Antioch Mint Issue

Reference.

RIC III -; BMCRE pg. 378, 3, pl. 68, 4); RSC 1179b.

Hadrian Denarius,

Obv.: IMP CAESAR TRAIAN HADRIANVS AVG.
Laureate, cuirassed bust right, aegis on left shoulder

Rev.: P M TR P [OT_ES] COS III. OT_ES?
Aequitas standing left with scales & cornucopaie

3.4 gr

close on RIC 80

all the best,

Eric
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All the Best,
Eric
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« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2015, 03:06:18 pm »

Hello coinfriends,

Can any one confirm this is Antioch?
and the reference is ok?

Best wishes,

Eric
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All the Best,
Eric
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« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2015, 04:09:30 pm »

I would rather assume Caesarea. Have a look at the early hemidrachms of Hadrian, the portrait style is quite exactly the same.

Rupert
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curtislclay
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« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2015, 04:22:20 pm »

I would rather assume Caesarea. Have a look at the early hemidrachms of Hadrian, the portrait style is quite exactly the same.

An interesting observation, maybe new?

Certainly it would have been new to David Walker, who wrote in 1977:

"The first series [of Hadrianic denarii struck at mints other than Rome]...is assigned to Antioch on grounds of style, which is indeed very similar to that of the tetradrachms struck at that city " (Metrology of Roman Silver Coinage II, p. 57).
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« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2015, 05:08:59 pm »

Just some days ago this coin was sold (not to me) on Fleabay, assigned by the seller (Lanz) to Caesarea. Of course, I cannot say how safe this attribution is, but I find the style very similar to these early Eastern denarii. What do you think of it?

Rupert
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curtislclay
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« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2015, 06:15:19 pm »

McAlee also attributes the denarii to Antioch, and illustrates a denarius and a tetradrachm of Antioch with virtually identical portraits.

But the Caesarean portraits are similar too, as you point out. Were the same engravers working for both Antioch and Caesarea during these years?
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« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2015, 03:33:03 am »

yes the nose looks very similar, at first i was thinking there is something wrong with this coin.
thank you on your comments.
i have added a bit sharper picture.

all the best,

Eric
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All the Best,
Eric
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« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2015, 07:46:53 am »

Hadrian Denarius Antioch or Caesarea ? 119-22 AD Fortuna standing
Reference.
RIC II, --; BMCRE --; RSC --; RSC 1179e; Strack *11;

Obv. IMP CAESAR TRAIAN HADRIANVS AVG
Laureate, cuirassed bust right, aegis on left shoulder


Rev. PM TR POTES III COS III
Fortuna standing left, holding rudder and cornucopia

3.08 gr
18 mm

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Eric
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« Reply #73 on: October 09, 2015, 02:42:03 pm »

I got a beautiful Hadrian denarius these days which, I think, also belongs to this Eastern series of Hadrian. I could not find this type in RIC, and I don't have the Strack. But the style and lettering, especially on the reverse, led me to think this is not a Rome mint product.

Hadrian, Denarius
Obv. HADRIANUS - AUGUSTUS
Laureate, cuirassed bust right
Rev. COS - III
Aequitas standing left with scales and cornucopiae
17.5 mm, 2.94 g, die axis 6 o'clock

Best regards,

Rupert

Hello Rupert and Curtis,

i have won a similar coin, maybe same die as Strack?
Laureate head right, far shoulder draped
mine
18x19 mm
3.31 gr
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All the Best,
Eric
There are no strangers, only friends you do not know yet.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=37270
curtislclay
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« Reply #74 on: October 09, 2015, 03:18:32 pm »

Eric,

Nice acquisition!

Same obv. die, I think, as the coin shown above by Maridunum on 3 Dec. 2012, with rev. III - COS, Fortuna standing.

So your obv. too must have just HADRIANVS - AVGVSTVS, no P P, and a fold of cloak on the emperor's front shoulder and maybe also behind his neck.
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