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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numism  |  Reading For the Advanced Collector  |  Topic: Two rare Eastern denarii of Hadrian 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Two rare Eastern denarii of Hadrian  (Read 73898 times)
curtislclay
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« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2010, 07:08:29 pm »

Martin,

Thanks for your interesting additions!

This obv. die with the omitted letter in Hadrian's name seems to have been unknown to Strack. Not mentioned in his catalogue, nor illustrated on his three plates of Eastern denarii of Hadrian, one devoted to obv. die links between different rev. types, showing that he had assembled plaster casts of most of the specimens known to him and had inspected the casts carefully!

Yes, your reverse type seems to be copied from RIC 330 at Rome, illustrated below. It's strange that the Eastern mint apparently changed the rev. legend from COS III, the current legend at Rome when the Eastern series started and which it usually took over, to the obsolete P M TR P COS III which had been used at Rome 5-10 years earlier. More usually the mint made the opposite change: copied a P M TR P COS III rev. type from the older Roman coins, but changed the rev. legend to the current COS III ! But there are other examples, listed in my Reply 14 above, of the Eastern mint copying a COS III type from Rome but altering its legend to P M TR P COS III.

As to the Bonus Eventus type on the die-linked denarius you show from Zach's site, both its type and its legend were apparently copied from Roman denarii of that earlier P M TR P COS III issue, like the second piece illustrated below.
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maridvnvm
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« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2010, 10:07:24 am »

Another coin that I take to be an eastern mint example:-

Denarius
Obv:- HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS P, Bare head right
Rev:- COS III, Minerva standing left, holding thunderbolt & scepter, shield at feet to right
Reference:– cf. BMCRE p. 379, 15.

Regards,
Martin
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curtislclay
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« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2010, 01:51:44 pm »

Strack *35, citing Pais only with this bust, ill. pl. XIX, different dies. No other die links for your obv. or rev. in Strack's plates either, that I could find.

Does your coin have the faulty legend HADRIANVS - AVGVSTVS P instead of the correct P P, making it a new variety? Strack records no obverse dies with just P.

Your coin has the same rev. type as mine shown above in the second post of the thread, there with obv. AVGVSTVS - HADRIANVS.
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maridvnvm
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« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2010, 02:08:27 pm »

Curtis,
I cannot see another P though it could just be clogged.

I did a little looking around and found another coin with an apparent P only instead of P P. Same reverse type as my example but with slight drapery on the bust.



This coin from the Forum Sold coins.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?param=14684q00.jpg&vpar=412&zpg=12894

Regards,
Martin
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curtislclay
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« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2010, 02:11:29 pm »

Evidence for Hadrian just Pater, so he and Sabina produced a son after all? Grin
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2010, 01:12:46 am »

Dear Curtis,
Adding to your notes I have just picked up this one, after recognising it as being something other than the "Rome" mint product it was identified as.

It was described thus:
HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS PP
Laureate bust right

P M TR P - COS III
Pax seated left

Weight: 3.21g; 6h.

I believe it to be eastern and hope you may be able to confirm it.

I also see, in relation to my earlier question (above), that Lanz has another (different) denarius in his upcoming auction described as "Ephesos (?)", it would be nice (for me!) if that can somehow be established some time. Does anyone know of any recent, or perhaps upcoming, research about this
matter?

Walter Holt
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curtislclay
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« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2010, 12:46:02 pm »

Walter,

Yes, that denarius too is Eastern: from the same dies as mine ex Beasley in Reply 17 above.

Lanz's piece is Eastern too, but there is no evidence for his attribution "Ephesos?". It would have been more prudent to write "Uncertain Mint in Asia Minor".
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2010, 06:50:49 pm »

Thanks Curtis,
Initially I did perform a visual search for this item within these pages, but then
dismissed them as all being different. The wear and toning, and perhaps even
the lighting of my image, all conspired to lead me away from the piece you point
out as being the same - which, upon closer inspection, it clearly is. It is so very
obvious when you point it out. Thank you.

Have you found any additional specimens since your above post, and would it be
improper to consider this the second (third, +??) known specimen? Oh, and thanks
for pointing out the correct identification of the reverse figure.

When I saw the Lanz description my hopes were raised that some new information
(article, etc.) had been released of which I was unaware. I think there is some
agreement that there are some similarities between many of these denarii and the
cistophori of Asia Minor. This may lead toward the suggestion, perhaps even a loose
conclusion, that they could have been (were?) struck at the same mint or mints. But
the question remains as to which mint or mints, or even if they were struck at same
time at those same mint(s), and not just somewhere nearby in both time and place.

I love this stuff. Wish I had more to go on.
Thanks for your help Curtis.

Walter Holt
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skillz1
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« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2010, 05:45:01 am »

Hi,

I came acros this coin today. I have almost no clue about ancient coins (i think i can vaguely distunguish fakes) so i looked the type up and found that the closest match was the one Curtis posted above. I would apreciate any type of comment.

Thanks,

Calin
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curtislclay
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« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2010, 04:29:21 pm »

Your coin is of Roman style, so it is not an Eastern issue copying Roman types, of the sort treated here.
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« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2010, 02:44:55 am »

Hello Calin,

you are absolutely right in that the type is the same as of the first coin Curtis posted on page 1, but the style of the coin shows that yours is an "usual" specimen from the mint of Rome, not the auxiliary Eastern mint of Hadrian.

Best regards,

Rupert
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« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2011, 02:56:35 pm »

Here's a coin that I got just today; when I bought it on Ebay some days ago I thought I had acquired a nice barbarian, but in hand it looks like a typical Eastern mint denarius to me.

Denarius, Hadrian, Eastern mint
Obv. HADRIANUS - AUGUSTUS PP
Laureate head right
Rev. COS - III
Modius with corn-ears
19 mm, 2.98 g, die axis 6 o'clock
RIC 353fn. (353 is from Rome mint, the footnote points to a specimen in BM in Eastern style)

Best regards,

Rupert
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« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2011, 08:43:32 pm »

Yes, certainly Eastern, Strack *52 (Paris, BM).

No die links I could find to the many Eastern denarii illustrated by Strack, including the two pieces of this type.
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« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2011, 03:54:55 pm »

Thank you Curtis! For the sake of completeness, here's my other recently acquired Eastern denarius:

Denarius, Hadrian, Eastern mint
Obv. HADRIANUS - AUGUSTUS PP
Laureate head right
Rev. COS - III
Eagle with half-spread wings standing left on a split ground line (or is this meant to be a thunderbolt?), looking back
19 mm, 2.92 g, die axis 6 o'clock
RIC 350 (for Rome mint)

Rupert
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maridvnvm
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« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2011, 03:42:05 am »

I have just received another coin that I think relevant to this thread.

I believe that the obverse die is that same as in the second post by Curtis early in this thread. The reverse also has the legends reversed in the same manner as the obverse.

Obv:- HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS, laureate head right with slight drapery on far shoulder (Legend reversed as AVGVSTVS HADRIANVS)
Rev:- COS III, Victory standing right holding wreath and palm (Legend reversed as III COS)

Regards,
Martin
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curtislclay
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« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2011, 07:08:42 pm »

Interesting. Apparently a new rev. type on the Eastern denarii, of uncertain origin.

That's admittedly a fairly standard Victory advancing right rev. type, but I find no such type on any denarius of Hadrian from the mint of Rome, nor on his Asian cistophori.

A similar type does occur on Hadrian's silver quinarii, and on a rather scarce denarius of Trajan struck in 112 (picture below), but these seem unlikely sources for a type on Hadrian's Eastern denarii.

Moreover on the Roman coins Victory grasps the stem of the palm over her shoulder in her left fist, thumb upwards, whereas on the Eastern denarius she palms the stem, holding it with her downwards pointing thumb while apparently keeping her fingers extended. I imagine that this detail may go back to the source copied, since it seems unlikely that the engraver changed it on his own whim.
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« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2011, 12:28:12 pm »

Many thanks for the great response Curtis. I had been ploughing methodically through my references trying to find an equivalent Rome type and had seen the similar type on Hadrian's silver quinarii but hadn't gone back to Trajan. The minor differences of walking vs. standing and the orientation of the hand holding the palm had completely passed me by and I thank you greatly for pointing them out.

I was wondering if the odd reverse legend arrangement of "III COS" matching the reversed obverse legend was also unusual for this issue.

As you say "a fairly standard Victory advancing right rev. type" but with some added interest.
Regards,
Martin
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Rupert
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« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2011, 06:09:06 am »

I got a beautiful Hadrian denarius these days which, I think, also belongs to this Eastern series of Hadrian. I could not find this type in RIC, and I don't have the Strack. But the style and lettering, especially on the reverse, led me to think this is not a Rome mint product.

Hadrian, Denarius
Obv. HADRIANUS - AUGUSTUS
Laureate, cuirassed bust right
Rev. COS - III
Aequitas standing left with scales and cornucopiae
17.5 mm, 2.94 g, die axis 6 o'clock

Best regards,

Rupert
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curtislclay
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« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2011, 05:21:52 pm »

Rupert,

COS III Aequitas standing is the commonest rev. type of this issue of Eastern denarii, but normally with obv. legend HADRIANVS - AVGVSTVS P P.

Without P P on obv., Strack *12, pl. XX, found only one specimen, in Vienna, with head laureate r. and from a different rev. die than yours.

Laur. cuir. seen from front is a rare bust type in the issue: Strack found only one such denarius, in Sofia, with P P on obv. and rev. FORT RED COS III, Fortuna seated.

Plus one with head bare, cuir. seen from front, in Berlin, also with P P on obv. and rev. COS III, Galley r.

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Rupert
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« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2011, 03:50:26 pm »

Thank you very much Curtis! So it's an unspectacular reverse, but the obverse with a rare bust, a rare legend, and a hitherto unknown combination.
Wow, ancient numismatics are a jigsaw puzzle with 3 million pieces (conservative estimate), and every now and then you manage to turn up one that's not been seen, or noticed, by anyone in the last 2,000 years. That's truly addictive.

Rupert
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« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2012, 06:27:50 am »

I have acquired another coin as an addition to this thread.

Obv:- HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS, Bare headed, draped and cuirassed bust right, seen from the rear
Rev:- COS III, Mars walking right holding spear and trophy

I must admit to have gone out on a limb with this one basing it as an eastern mint example based on the somewhat unusual styling.

Thoughts? Comments?

Martin
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curtislclay
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« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2012, 07:23:33 pm »

Yes, clearly Eastern style, the lettering in particular is typical.

Strack *13, pl. XX, has this rev. type in the rare HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS issue, citing a denarius in Paris with bare-headed, draped bust r., not draped and cuirassed like yours. The same rev. type also occurs on Eastern denarii with the normal obv. legend H A P P.

Strack doesn't record your exact obverse with any other rev. type in this H A issue either. However, I have two Eastern denarii with the same obv. type, but from a different obv. die, coupled with two other COS III rev. types.

Rev. seems to be copied from a slightly earlier Hadrianic denarius, as below. That was also a common rev. type on late denarii of Trajan.
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maridvnvm
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« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2012, 05:42:15 am »

Many thanks Curtis.
I was a little thrown by the bust type as I hadn't seen this particular variation before for Hadrian. The style of the lettering was my first indication that it was eastern though I must admit I wasn't 100% certain but am certainly learning to spot them.
What are the other reverse that you have with the similar bust? (just out of pure curiosity, if you don't mind me being cheeky enough to ask...)
Regards,
Martin
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« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2012, 08:10:25 am »

The one I can immediately find has rev. II - I - COS, Victory advancing r., from the same rev. die as your AVGVSTVS - HADRIANVS coin above (Reply #40)!
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« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2012, 07:02:05 am »

Here's an early Eastern (Antioch) denarius of Hadrian that I got recently, unfortunately in quite mediocre condition. It has the typical PM TR POTES reverse legend, a cuirassed bust seen from front, and an Aequitas reverse. Weight is 2.93 g, max. diameter 18.5 mm, and die axis 6 o'clock.

Rupert
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