Qutb al-Din Ghazi II classical busts

[Heliodromus]

Can anyone tell me why Qutb al-Din Ghazi II employed classical (hellenistic, roman) busts on some of his coins, and perhaps also translate the kufic legend on the reverse (non-bust) side of this one.

[DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Thanks!
Ben

[Howard Cole]

The reverse legend is the following according to Sayles and Sprengler.
Il-Ghazi
li-Mawlana al-malik al-alim
al-adil Qutb al-Din
Malik al-umara Shah
Diyarbakr

This legend continues on the obverse.
Top:  bin Alpi bin
Bottom: Timurtash bin
Left: Il-Ghazi
Right: bin Artuq

The reverse is in Naskhi script and includes five laqabs and the ism of the the ruler.  The obverse gives the ruler's pedigree back four generations (continuing from the reverse).

Sayles states that this obverse was copied from a coin of Constantine the Great and shows a solidus with the same sort of bust issued by Constantine.

[Howard Cole]

You really need to read Sayles and Spengler's book on figural Turkoman bronze coins.  There are several reasons for why busts appear on this Islamic coins (and not just for the Artukid of Mardin series).  One has to do with the population of the area, which was a mixture of Christian and other religions.  Another has to do with who the die engravers were.  I am at work now so I can't give all of the reasons that Sayles and Spengler explore.

They have nothing to do with tracing the bloodline back to the Romans.  Of course the Seljuqs of Rum do consider themselves to be the direct descendants of the Romans.

By the way, I have a collection of over 60 Islamic figural bronze.  I find them really fascinating.

[Istinpolin]

You have to understand that during these years what Islamic and Turkic dynasties did is to imitate Byzantine coinage. Especially pre-reform Umayyad coppers were like this. One other thing is that most copper coins are somewhat unofficial types which were struck locally rather than centrally. Therefore once Islamic dynasties conquered an area which was previously Christian, it was of utmost importance to the conquerors to maintain the local standard. Examples of this can be found throughout all Ottoman regions. For example the main denomination of the Ottoman heartland was the Akce and 10 Akces made an Onluk which just means "piece of ten". However, in cities like Mardin, Aleppo (Halab), Damascus (Dimashq or Sham) 10 Akces made a Dirhem which is consistant with Umayyad, Abbasid or Fatimid coinage. The Dirham is not a Turkish invention but an Arabic. Other examples are Ottoman coins struck in Transcaucasia which is predominantly Persian. The Abbasi survived there since the Safavids.

Moreover if you look at pre-reform Umayyad coins of Arab-prototypes , so to speak, Arab-Byzantine, Arab-Armenian, Arab-Sassanid and Arab-Bukharan types, you will that the coins were locally imitated but were bearing Islamic elements on then as well as other languages.

So the Artukid or actual name is Artukogullari, a Turkish principality did this too. If they minted coins which was Byzantine before they imitated this kind of coins. The same with Roman, Seleucid and so on.

Sayles and Spengler is absolutely outdated in this coinage full of mistakes. Recent Turkish publications are much more up to date which are soon to be availabe in English as well.

I have to agree with Howard that it has nothing to do with bool lines. However the Seljuqs are not descendants of the Romans and they do not claim this as well. They are considering themselves as i-Rumi Fatiha which means the conquerer or the Rum. Rum in this context means everytihng Hellenistic and Roman (so this culture) kind of like we use "Western" today. Rum can also mean Anatolia or in todays meaning just Greeks or Greek on Cyprus. Fatih Sultan Mehmet II of Muhammad II proclaimed himself Kayser i-Rum which means the Caesar of Rum.

[Heliodromus]

Thanks Istinpolin - very informative!

My own collecting area is Roman bronze, specifically Constantine, so this period/culture is completely unknown to me. I was quite surprised to see a bust of Constantine on a 12th C "Islamic" coin! It's interesting not only because this "eyes to god" bust of Constantine can be viewed as a Christian symbol, but also interesting that there was obviously enough knowledge of roman coins at this date to make this use presumably meaningful.

Can you explain why it was considered so important for a conquored Christian area to be allowed to continue with it's local customs? Given the religious differences and background of the Crusades, it seems quite unexpected!

Ben

[Howard Cole]

Islam is really a very tolerant religion.  What we hear about today is from the extreme view and not the view of the majority that practice Islam.  Because of this tolerance and the desire to not disrupt the economy, as little as possible was done when an area was conquered. 

As for Constantine looking upwards being a Christian symbol, this is very debatable.  Even saying Constantine was a Christian is debatable.  Yes, he did recognize the Christian religion and made it part of the state religion, but there are many other reasons for doing this then having him be a Christian.

Istinpolin, when do you think the Turkish books in English, on this series of coins, will be published?  Please let me know when it happens!

[vic9128]

Even saying Constantine was a Christian is debatable. 

Modern scholarship does not debate this point.

[Howard Cole]

I have to disagree about modern scholarship.  Yes, there is still a debate.  Constantine's death bed conversion is very much debated since it was written by a Christian well after the event.

[vic9128]

Please let me know which scholars (there may be a few as historians never completely agree) are still debating as I am writing my master's thesis on Constantine and can always use more sources.

Here is most of my bibliography

http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/bib.html/

[Howard Cole]

Victor, this point is not worth arguing about.  You have really read all of those references that you have posted?  If you have, I am very impressed. 

As for a masters degree, it does not make you an expert about the topic.  I too hold a masters degree and I would not consider myself an expert on the subject area of my degree.  I just know more then the average person.

Since I have not studied this area as much as you, I don't have a list of sources and I am not going to waste my time looking up more sources for you. 

As for your research, I have found that if you go in with a preconceived view, you will find research that supports that view and ignore most that does not, or at least find reasons for not accepting it.  As you get older, I assume that you are in your twenties but may be wrong since I did not go back to college and get my master degree until I was 39, you will find that there is a lot of basis in research and you have to watch out for it.

Good luck in writing your thesis.

[Istinpolin]

Dear Victor good choice of a Masters thesis.
In the Da Vinci Code the author mentions that Constantine was babtised on his death bed. Wether this is true or not I dont know.
I am also doing my masters thesis right now and my topic is Nationalism and Racism. I do have a lot of sources right now and have excellent books on Constantine published in Turkey in English. So, if you need something from the "Easter" perspective let me know.

Dear Howard,
There is already one by the famous Turkish numismatisist Ibrahim Artuk, who bears the same name as the dynasty Artuks. Pm me if you need some pages. There is an excellent chronological poster which comes with it. It lists all the rulers of all Empires in the greater region.

[vic9128]

Howard I have read all but a half dozen of the books, but they are in the rotation. I also never called myself an expert; but rather requested more information! I also did not have a preconceived idea, but have ideas based on extensive reading! I also did not start my master's until I was 39.

[Robert_Brenchley]

Constantine does appear to have had a deathbed baptism, and as far as we know, this wasn't uncommon at the time. There was beleived to be no forgiveness on earth for sins comitted after baptism, so it would have been a sensible move to have them removed at a point when it was too late to commit any more! But whether that means he was a 'true Christian', whatever that is, is another matter.

The big problem is, we don't really know how the average Christian of the time, as opposed to the theologians, saw the matter. We know that there were those who worshipped both Christ and the sun, since Pope Leo complained about it in the following century. Since Constantine had been a devotee of the sun, and continued to mint the SOLI INVICTO COMITI type long after his 'conversion', he could well have been on of these. But who really knows? What we do know is that the Christianity of the time was pretty diverse.

[LordBest]

I had read somewhere that Constantine's baptism was forced on him when he was to weak to resist, though he did still try and resist. Unfortunately I have no idea where I read it so I cannot back it up in any way. Personally I'm going to think the worst of anyone who steams Fausta to death. Women are not asparagus.
                                                             LordBest.

[Robert_Brenchley]

If there's anything at all in traditional Christian theology, then I don't doubt there's somewhere very uncomfortable prepared for his sort. Doubtless Fausta's down there with him, if she really did get Srispus killed on a false charge.