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Author Topic: Coin Cleaning question  (Read 7924 times)

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Offline mwilson603

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Coin Cleaning question
« on: March 13, 2007, 11:03:18 am »
Hi All,

I have a question that will more than likely incur the wrath of people like Joe, but I still gotta ask it.

I am fairly new to this field and whilst thoroughly enjoying it I have also encountered many of the pitfalls of cleaning coins.  I have tried soaking in distilled water, olive oil, soapy water etc and have even tried soaking in lime scale removers to soften crusts, (that can work really well but you can't leave the coins in for too long, and try to remeber to wash your hands before taking out your contact lenses!).

However, there have been a couple of coins that have resisted all attempts at picking and scraping regardless of what I have soaked them in.  I unfortunately don't have a stereo microscope, and so I have experimented with electrolysis.  After finding instructions on the web I rigged up a 20v laptopn transformer with two crocodile clips, filled a glass with salt water and went ahead.  Now I have since read that you shouldn't use salt water, and I also know Joe will claim that I have joined the legions of hell for "zapping" the coin but stick with me, it maybe gets worse  :-[

I have never found that the coin gets completely back to a metal colour.  Not sure why, could be the salt?, maybe the way the laptop charger works? not really sure but the coins does appear to retain much of the original pre-treatment colour, and so after treatment I am wanting to finish it, and protect it.  (here it comes!). 

Now I read about using dellars or something similar to "re-patinate" the coin, and then I thought that I should Ren-Wax it.  I mentioned this to a very well known, and published, ancient coin specialist and he said that there was no need to do that.  He said to get a more even colour, and wax protect the coin, look at the colour of the coin and use a similar coloured renovating boot polish. ( I am now grimacing, imaging Joe making a doll of me and sticking pins into very sensitive places!)

I have actually tried this approach on a coin that I couldn't get clean and I think it looks great, see below.  I have also previously posted that coin on the identification forum as I genuinely couldn't get an exact attribution, and no-one saw any problem with the coin.  In hand, the polish has been buffed off, there is no residue to remove, and the coin is now protected very well.  I have since tried the polish method on another coin that I had kept in limescale remover for too long, ( I went to make some dinner and forgot about it until the next day!), and that too came out looking great.

What are your thoughts on this?  Is it any worse than using another method of re-colouring like Dellars? or protecting like Ren-Wax?

Holding my breath and waiting for a written beating by the experts.......

bruce61813

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2007, 11:52:25 am »
Well we normally don't flog new people the first time.... :evil:.  Let me make a couple of comments.
    The first is the use of salt [NaCl] . It makes water very conductive and that increases the current flow through the coin, higher current means more "power", and power means heat. You can litterally burn a coin, even using 6 vols at 1 amp. I would stick to 12 VDC or less, and use a transformer that is limited to 1 amp.

   The second reason for not using salt, is that unless you soak and rinse it carefully, you risk the coin developing Bronze Disease late on. Use baking soda [sodium bi-carbonate] or washing soda [sodium carbonate] or some special products. You can talk to Mayadigger about those, and some things that are an alternative to electolysis.

   In general, anything acid should not be used on bronze, unless very tightly controlled, it turns them a very odd pink [native raw copper] and is very disagreeable to look at. But to break down some of the encrustations it is the only way.

    Generally the darkening is carbon, if the coin looks decent, leave it. If you put it in the sun for a week or two it will darken a bit on it's own. Things like dellars are useful, but should be used sparingly, and more for touchup [but that is my opinion].

Bruce

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2007, 12:24:48 pm »
I don't see that shoe polish is any worse than any other type of artificial finish (at least I imagine it might be reversable), but zapping itself does seem a bit brutal unless you are sure that the coin doesn't have some type of patina worth attempting to save (I don't know if silvering survives zappping either).

Your coin doesn't look bad, but that's really because it is (or was?) inherently a nice coin - scarcer type, well struck and centered. However due to being zapped it now has a very pitted surface exposed which may well pre-zapping have been at least partially hidden under a smooth patina.

An alternate approach you might try is alternate soaking/scrubbing in Sodium Tripolyphosphate (STPP) which is an approach recommended by professional conservators of copper artifacts, and apparently achieves the near-miraculous of being able to dissolve calcium carbonate mineral deposits without affecting patina.

Sodium Tripolyphosphate: A Safe Sequestering Agent for the Treatment of Excavated Copper Objects
V. C. Sharma, B. V. Kharbade
Studies in Conservation, Vol. 39, No. 1 (Feb., 1994), pp. 39-44

If you google for "Sodium Tripolyphosphate calgon" you can find the first page of this article via JSTOR. The article also specifially notes the adverse affect of Calgon (a scale remover) on patina, although I don't know if this is referring to the old or new formulations. The active ingredient in the old formulation of Calgon was mainly Sodium Hexametaphospate (SHMP) which sounds to be closely related to STPP.

Ben

P.S. Not only should you be wary of using acids on bronze as Bruce says, but you should be careful of alkalis also as they can dissolve tin and lead which are also present in bronze (although I have seen some bronze coins partially cleaned - very carefully - with ammonia, a good aklaline solvent, that didn't appear to have suffered).

bruce61813

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2007, 12:49:23 pm »

An alternate approach you might try is alternate soaking/scrubbing in Sodium Tripolyphosphate (STPP) which is an approach recommended by professional conservators of copper artifacts, and apparently achieves the near-miraculous of being able to dissolve calcium carbonate mineral deposits without affecting patina.

   I am not sure if this wold be any better. The "greatly" over valued green, is copper carbonate, and may well be stripped. It is always a case by case trial. I have not found on single method or soultion that does all.

  Electrolysis does not harm silver coins. But silvered may be a different matter. Often the corrosion runs under the silver surace, between it and the AE core, so when the corrosion is removed, the loose silver will flake off. Any silver that is still bonded to the core is generally safe.

Bruce

Mark Farrell

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2007, 01:08:42 pm »
Ok, I admit it, here comes the cat o' nine tails.  ;)

I think that some clarification is needed. So-called repatination products work different ways.

Dellars -- recreates natural copper tarnish -- this is the result of sulphur in the mix combining with the copper in the coin to create copper sulfide, which is the same stuff that is created on copper cents (in US at least) as a natural result of circulation. This is also exactly what happens to silver coins when they "tone" -- it is a sulfide. In the natural process of tarnishing, the sulfur comes from almost anything that touches the coin -- hands, clothes, or even the atmosphere. Because this is a natural process, you can leave a copper/bronze coin that has been stripped shiny new to naturally tarnish by leaving it exposed to sulfur bearing compounds (air polution is probably the best), so leaving the coin on the window sill for a couple of years works. Dellar's just works faster. Apparently you could do the same by exposing the coins to hydrogen sulfide gas, but that is seriously above my experience level.

This, though is not patina. Patina is what forms on the surface after natural tarnish. First, copper carbonates forms. Then through oxidation, the copper is coated with verdigris, which is a mixture of copper acetate and copper carbonate. Then, finally, patina forms, which can include copper sulfate, cuprous oxide, and/or any mix of the two, along with substances -- like dirt -- that surround the coin. See "Cleaning and Preservation of Coins and Medals", Sanford Durst, for details of this process on many different types of coin metals.

To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing -- no process, no dip, no coating -- that recreates actual patina. Either you recreate tarnish (via Dellars or time) or you re-color the coin using something like Jax or, in the case above, using shoe polish. These products "assign" a color to the surface of the coin that is not, strictly speaking, warranted. There is absolutely nothing "natural" about these products. Yes, the coin looks better when it is done. But fundamentally, there is no difference between "dyeing" the coin this way or by painting it!

Except, of course, that painting a coin would be probably be considered by most collectors to be deceitful. It is certainly more time consuming that dragging old Constantine through a tin of Kiwi. But at the end of the day, the shoe polish trick is probably fine on our own private collections, though they will, someday, re-enter the market (hopefully many, many years from now!).  I just know that if I bought a coin from that "well known ancient coin specialist" and found out the color had been imparted by shoe polish, I'd be one hot puppy. Like most things, if something "unnatural" has been applied to the coin, a sellar should declare such at time of sale. If everything is above board, fine, no hard done. If no warning is given, I think it is fradulent and deceitful. IMHO

I do ask the boards, though, where the line gets drawn? Someone like Scott, who has significant artistic skills, could probably paint a patina on a coin that would probably fool all but an expert. But is that right? Is is right to use shoe polish or some other "repatination" product to re-color a coin? Incidentally, don't include Dellars in that mix because it doesn't recolor the coin -- it re-creates a naturally occuring tarnish.

Anyway, the shoe polish thing does, at least, protect the bronze from further corrosion and bronze disease, so it provides value from that perspective (darn it, now I'm wondering what a cordovan polish would do to shiny brass...).

Congius -- that's an interesting tip on the STPP -- I'd like to learn more about it. Thanks.

So much for an opposing gush... More opinions?

Mark

vic9128

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2007, 01:32:06 pm »
This, though is not patina. .

That is according to your definition. Here is another definition from Merriam-Webster:

Patina- a usually green film formed naturally on copper and bronze by long exposure or artificially ; or a superficial covering or exterior.


from Wikipedia:

"A wide range of chemicals, both household and commercial, can give a variety of patinas. They are often used by artists as surface embellishments either for color, texture, or both. Patination composition varies with the reacted elements and these will determine the color of the patina. Exposure to chlorides leads to green, while sulfur compounds (such as "liver of sulfur") tend to brown. For artworks patination is deliberately accellerated by heat. Colors range from matte sandstone yellow to deep blues, reds and various blacks, sometimes with the surface sheen enhanced by waxing for artwork displayed indoors."


There is a distinction between natural and artificial patinas, but both are still patinas.

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2007, 02:16:17 pm »
Quote from: bruce61813 on March 13, 2007, 12:49:23 pm

An alternate approach you might try is alternate soaking/scrubbing in Sodium Tripolyphosphate (STPP) which is an approach recommended by professional conservators of copper artifacts, and apparently achieves the near-miraculous of being able to dissolve calcium carbonate mineral deposits without affecting patina.

   I am not sure if this wold be any better. The "greatly" over valued green, is copper carbonate, and may well be stripped. It is always a case by case trial. I have not found on single method or soultion that does all.

Yes - that's where I'd be most suspect also, but if it did also remove copper carbonate while leaving other types of patina (and copper/bronze itself) unharmed, then it may anyway be a useful technique to have in ones toolbag - maybe it could be used to remove the green crusties (presumably copper carbonate) from brown patina or silvered coins. I havn't tried it myself - I only have that article and an old endorsement for coin use on Moneta-L to go by. I do have a few coins that I want to clean, but am taking the "cutting the Koh-i-noor" approach of long study before action!

Ben


Mark Farrell

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2007, 06:39:11 pm »
Victor brings up a very good point. The term patina can apply to a wide variety of situations. I believe that the definition in Wikipedia focuses more on the treatment of copper or bronze art objects. I tend to go more with the definition in Numiswiki, because it is specific to coins (https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Patina), as is the use of the terms -- as well as distinctions between tarnish and patina -- in "Cleaning and Preservation of Coins and Medals."

Yes, a green coating, or one of yellow, purple, or almost any color you want, can be created on almost any metal surface through the use of a wide variety of chemicals. Artists and sculptors have used such things for a very long time. People in the building trades can "green up" a copper roof in days; similarly with exposed copper pipes to give a room/building a nicely "aged" look.

People have artificially aged copper and bronze for centuries and yes, it's "patina". But is it the same thing that appears as a natural result of aging on coins? I think most collectors would say certainly not.

Either way, has anyone ever used a "repatination product" that actually creates a patina (numismatic definition) on a coin? To qualify, the product must result in chemical changes to the surface of the coin -- if you can wash it off (using an appropriate solvent such as water, alcohol, or acetone), it isn't patina. Incidentally, regardless of your definition, this disqualifies both shoe polish and paint.

Mark

Mark Farrell

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2007, 06:47:20 pm »
Sorry, Mwilson, forgot to mention that it is a wicked nice result from electrolysis! Much better than my efforts.

Nice coin and good job.

Mark

Offline awl

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2007, 07:15:01 pm »
I only use electrolysis as a last resort. (Only for the coins that basically have rock on them)

I use a pin vise to wedge under everything else or I just use a brass brush.

Offline mwilson603

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2007, 07:24:46 pm »
What a great debate, and thanks for being gentle on the beating.

mhfarrell, thanks for your praise on the electrolysis but honestly it is more luck than judgement.  As I said in my original post I never take the coin back to bare metal.  That does leave me wondering however, as the shoe polish actually appears to soak in, or bind somehow to the existing surface.  I guess that might make my actions worse in some peoples eyes as it might not be reversable.  However, as therefore I don't believe it can come off easily, does that become a patina according to your definition?

There appear to be a lot of thoughts from people who agree that this treatment is as good as any other artificial treatment, (thanks for the support :) )although I have to say that similar to Awl, I would only use it on coins that I have nearly given up on cleaning in any other way.

I know the purist view on Patinas, and also the common view on clean until you can attribute and then stop and to a degree I subscribe to those views.  However, if you have a coin that you cannot shift the crud and cementation off of, and you are going to have to resort to drastic measures to see what is actually under the rubbish, then why would you not try and replace some of the coins beauty after the treatment?

I have done the process, i.e. zapping and boot polish, on just 1 other coin, and I have used the boot polish on another after too long a soak in Calgon as follows.

Now maybe I have lucky or unlucky depending on your view, but prior to the final treatment, after 18 months or so of soaking and brushing, I still couldn't shift a black coating on a couple of coins and the coins actually appeared to be slugs.  There was literally no discernable detail at all.  I then soaked them in Calgon lime scale remover and detail came into play, and what detail!!   But it did remove a lot of patina as there appeared to be nothing under the black that crumbled off one coin.  On the other coin I figured that as I still hadn't hit a metal surface, enough was enough and the zapper came into play.  The 2 coins below are those 2 coins and again I think they look great.  The VRBS ROMA is the Calgon coin, and the Trajan is the zapped one.  Both have then had cream boot polish applied, allowed to dry and then brushed with a shoe polish brush.

For the purists, my defense is as follows.  Someone hundreds of years ago spent a considerable time producing a work of art, and over time that work became hidden.  I believe that I have regained some of that originally intended beauty, a beauty which may well have stayed hidden, or in these cases maybe even thrown away as slugs never to be seen by anyone again.  Surely I can be forgiven that  ;)

I notice that Joe hasn't beaten me yet, but tonight I have developed a sharp stabbing pain in the left hand side of my chest..........

Mark Farrell

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2007, 08:44:40 pm »
LMAO...

Now you've done it! If, as you say, the shoe polish seems to "... bind somehow to the existing surface" then it would absolutely qualify as patina!

I've got some old slugs and Kiwi brown that I will experiment with. It it doesn't come off by soaking in acetone after a couple of days, then there may be something really interesting going on chemically (and in that case, perhaps Bruce can investigate -- the man knows his chemistry).

I am, personally, not at all defensive about electrolysis, or even stripping a patina to expose detail (see this post: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=35660.0). I do not personally mind a stripped coin. I do prefer patina, but if it is a question between attribution and patina, I will go with attribution every day of the week.

My only goal was to question where the line gets drawn? I personally don't see the difference ethically between using a repatination product that doesn't actually create a real patina and using acrylic paint to make the coin more presentable. Just because something is called a "repatination product" doesn't make it so.

Now I'm going to go "drag a Constantine through a can of Kiwi" to see what happens.  :)

Mark

Circus_Maximus

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2007, 10:18:58 pm »
-paint would be pushing it and is a trick used by uncleaned vendors of minor minimus to make things look untouched.

I am not able to comment on the boot stuff but may read and watch


bruce61813

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2007, 06:02:56 pm »
"I've got some old slugs and Kiwi brown that I will experiment with. It it doesn't come off by soaking in acetone after a couple of days, then there may be something really interesting going on chemically (and in that case, perhaps Bruce can investigate -- the man knows his chemistry)."

You may not be as far off as you think. Somewhere at home I have a book on putting different finishes on metals. It was published for artistic metal workers. There are a number of waxes hat can be applied to metal surface. Those are the real cheap ones, and a strong detergent with some TSP will remove them, that may also apply to your Kiwi. Different organics [like waxes] will dissolve in different solvent. What may be removed with alcohol, can't be removed with acetone [like shellac, it is only soluable in ethyl alcohol ]. The fishes that do adhere or bond to the metal can be considered patina, and may be chemically the same as what would form over time. Thare would be no easy method of telling.

  As to electrolysis or not, that depends on the item. I too prefer to be able to attribute a coin. If it is totally plugged, you are just guessing. My main collections are Campgates and PMS COL VIMS, you need to see the details, number of blocks don't matter for the CG's, but mint marks and some other details are critical, as are the figure of Moesia, the bull and lion on the reverse of the VIMS.  

Bruce

Offline mwilson603

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2007, 07:24:52 pm »
So, if I am reading this correctly, there could be something chemically happening here. 

I have tried to find some ingredients to assist in your thought process, especially as I found that renovating polish worked while normal polish wasn't as good.  I used 2 different colours from the Cherry Blossom Rich Cream Renovating Polish range.

I did find the following on Wikipedia regarding the potential ingredients used.  Would any of these stand out in your mind?  And would the electrolysis or use of Calgon maybe make the surface microscopically porous which could assist the polish to "soak" in?

From wikipedia
Shoe polish consists of a waxy colloidal emulsion, a substance composed of a number of partially immiscible liquids and solids mixed together. It is usually made from ingredients including some or all of naphtha, lanolin, turpentine, wax (often Carnauba wax), gum arabic, ethylene glycol, and if required a colourant, such as carbon black or an azo dye (such as aniline yellow). It typically has a specific gravity of 0.8, is negligibly soluble in water, and is made of between 65 and 77% volatiles — usually naphtha. The high amount of volatile substances means that the shoe polish will dry out and harden after application, while retaining its shine.

Lanolin, a hydrophilic grease from wool-bearing animals such as sheep or goats, acts as both a waterproofing wax and a bonding agent, giving the shoe polish its greasy feel and texture. It also prevents the naphtha from evaporating until the polish has been spread and buffed into a thin film on the leather surface. An essential ingredient in shoe polish is a thickener; without this, the polish would be too runny, making it difficult to use. Gum arabic, a substance from two sub-Saharan species of the acacia tree, is commonly used to increase the viscosity of the product.

regards

Mark

bruce61813

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2007, 10:51:18 pm »
Gum Arabic, also hardens when exposes to ultraviolet light, and is waterproof. It is used in the printing industry for making printing plates. If you mixed it with a water soluble pigment, smeared the coin with it, and gave it  heavy dose on UV, you would have a new patina shell that would adhere to the base metal, and be waterproof. There is a non-silver printing process that does this on paper.

Bruce

Offline mwilson603

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2007, 06:16:49 am »
Excellent.

I'm looking forward to see what mhfarrell's experiments yield  :)

Mark Farrell

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2007, 11:05:09 am »
They are in process. Will update this weekend. I'm giving the wax time to age, so to speak.

Mark

Offline mwilson603

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2007, 05:26:29 pm »
Any news yet Mr Farrell?  How did the aging go? and is the process reversable?

Mark Farrell

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2007, 06:54:55 pm »
I've got the coins aging right now, as a matter of fact. The coverage with most of the polish I tried was pretty poor. Black shoe creme (vs. paste wax) seems to cover best.

I've also got two other samples that include one with Dellars and one with Nik-a-Tone Cent Toner (something I use sometimes).

I'll let everything "age" until this weekend and will then see what I can wash/scrub off. I'll post befores, in-process, afters, etc.

Stay tuned,

Mark

PS -- it enhances the reading of this post if you imagine the crazed, insane cackling of a mad scientist in the background...

Offline mwilson603

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2007, 08:25:33 pm »
No imagination necessary, I already had that impression  ;D

As mentioned, I find that the renovating cream works best also.  I bought a very badly cleaned GENIO to test this further, and now I think it looks OK.  Yyour experiments will establish the fastness of the colour, but even as a temporary improver and protector, I am becoming less ashamed of using the process. 

See below for the GENIO, and apologies for the flash flare on the Obv, couldn't seem to get an angle that the flip didn't reflect at.

regards

Mark

Mark Farrell

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Re: Coin Cleaning question
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2007, 03:08:37 pm »
New thread created with results of shoe polish tests --

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=36272.msg229844

Enjoy,

Mark

 

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