Semi-cleaned Panti Issue

[Mayadigger]

Ave!

Here's one for discerning "cleaning" eyes.

Pantikapaion Issue, Ae18. Obv/ Young Pan l., with Star counter-mark. The RX is PAN/ head of Roaring Lion l., with pseudo-countermark of bowcase on Lion's head. Look at the pix and then we'll go further, shall we?

Pseudo-countermarks on Black Sea area coins are quite rare, but not unknown; i.e., the CM was simply added to the die, rather than going to the trouble of 2nd stamping. This is the 1st example of this P-CM that I've found for any Panti issue.

So, other than removing the rest of the common dirt, should I do any further cleaning? As seen, the green patina is intact, while a bit of copper is showing on the Bowcase CM.

Just curious for your opinions,

Kevin

[Jerome Holderman]

Personally... I might take a dddp to the dirt above Pan and thin it a bit more, but that's about it.

 But you know me, generally more likely to underclean than overclean. I figure a buyer can always clean more if they desire, that can't undo overcleaning. Not to say that I have not killed some, still happens more often than I care to admit but....

[Ghengis_Jon]

Other than the dirt, I'd leave it.  I agree with Jerome - better to underclean than the opposite.  I wouldn't want to risk the patina.

[Raymond]

I'm ashamed to say I can't even see the bowcase, let alone CM.  I see something marring the head in a NNW-SSE direction.  Is that it?
I feel that the countermark(s) spoil(s) the coin, you can no longer see Pan.  On the other hand, if I owned hundreds of these coins, it might be refreshing to find one mutilated two thousand years ago...
Raymond

[bruce61813]

I'm ashamed to say I can't even see the bowcase, let alone CM.  I see something marring the head in a NNW-SSE direction.  Is that it?
I feel that the countermark(s) spoil(s) the coin, you can no longer see Pan.  On the other hand, if I owned hundreds of these coins, it might be refreshing to find one mutilated two thousand years ago...
Raymond

Raymond, the countermark is the thing that looks like a compass rose, the bowcase is the 'mask' that runs vertically across the loins eyes/face. That same compass rose mare was used on many ancient coins, the Judean/greek coins the lepton comes to mind.

bruce

[awl]

I'd just do the basic cleaning, the coin should look great.

[Mayadigger]

Ave!

Well, that's about what I figuered, cleaning-wise.

I'm ashamed to say I can't even see the bowcase, let alone CM. I see something marring the head in a NNW-SSE direction. Is that it?
I feel that the countermark(s) spoil(s) the coin, you can no longer see Pan. On the other hand, if I owned hundreds of these coins, it might be refreshing to find one mutilated two thousand years ago...
Raymond

Raymond, "mutilated" is not quite the word we use to describe CM (counter-marked) coins. Counter-marking was a way that the ancients used to insure that coins were authentic and worth a certain value. There are many very serious coin collectors who specialize in CM coins only. Henrik Agndal, for one, comes to mind. Here's a link that you might want to check out:

http://www.romancoins.info/Countermarks.html

You certainly don't need to own hundreds of these coins to appreciate the rareness of the bowcase pseudo-counter mark on the RX. Actually, I have held in my hand close to 100 of these Panti animal reverses, and this is the only one that I've ever seen with any pseudo-counter mark, or on any photo, either.

Oh well, I think it's rather cool. 

Thanks to all,

Kevin

[bruce61813]

Althoughthe coin looks "official", could the pseudo cm be an ancient forgers trick to get the coin to pass for something it wasn't!  Just a passing thought, brought about the remark concerning CM's in general. Some old coins to worn or their valuation canged were counter stamped to indicate their new value.

Bruce