Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Hanukkah Sameach! Tell them you want a coin from FORVM for Hanukkah!!!! Internet challenged? We are happy to take your order over the phone 252-646-1958. Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Ho Ho Ho Merry Christmas!!! Tell them you want a coin from FORVM for Christmas!!!! Internet challenged? We are happy to take your order over the phone 252-646-1958.


FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Medieval, Islamic and Crusader Coins (Moderators: AlexB, quadrans)  |  Topic: Help for ID of Egyptian coin 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Help for ID of Egyptian coin  (Read 2170 times)
lbavay
Guest
« on: November 30, 2006, 04:02:35 am »

Can anyone help with the identification of the following coin (see attached photograph) ?

It was found during the excavation of Theban Tomb TT 29 in Luxor, Egypt. I could not find a match in corpuses of Mameluk coins, and it looks very different from the late Ottoman coins that we also found in the most recent contexts.

Any help would be most appreciated.

L. Bavay
Director of the University of Brussels mission in the Theban necropolis
Logged
Istinpolin
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 413


« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2006, 08:15:33 am »

Dear Friend

Your coin is a Ottoman AE Mangir Misr mint by Murad III. The date is worn off the coin but it must be either (982AH) or (983AH).

Best wishes,
Burak
Logged
lbavay
Guest
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2006, 12:22:32 pm »

Dear Burak,
You are of an immense help ! Thank you very very much !

As I new member, I realize the readers of this forum are so competent that I dare posting two more coins for identification, which are even worst preserved than the previous one. They probably range roughly in the same period ?! Especially the second one (292810) is almost unreadable, the verso being completely worne... But who knows, with such champions as you guys ?...
I could not find good reference for Egyptian coins of this period (sorry, I am an Egyptologist not really specialist of these periods and of coins).

Many thanks in advance,

Laurent Bavay
Logged
Istinpolin
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 413


« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2006, 01:49:28 pm »

Dear Friend

The first one of your second post is the same one as the first one just a variation.
They are all mentioned in Necdet Kabaklarli's "Mangir-Copper coins of the Ottoman Empire"
The date is also not visible but it must be again 982 or 983.

The last one is also a Mangir of the Ottoman Empire and you can read Misr on it. I assume it is yet another Murad III Mangir of the same era. However, to be sure, one would need to see the ornamental reverse as well, no matter how worn it is.

Best wishes,
Burak
Logged
lbavay
Guest
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2006, 02:26:36 pm »

Dear Burak,

Again, many thanks ! I won't miss to mention your valuable help in the publication (in preparation) of our excavation in Gourna.
The presence of these coins is extremely interesting, since they are so far the first archaeological evidence for the 16th cent. occupation of the Theban necropolis (attested only by travelers' accounts).

Best regards,

Laurent Bavay
Logged
Nassif
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1425


« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2006, 08:52:54 am »

Hi;
Curious question...Why this coin was found in such place?What is the historical meaning?
Regards.
nassif
Logged
lbavay
Guest
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2006, 10:52:40 am »

Dear Nassif,
The Theban necropolis (Luxor's West bank of the Nile) is among the world's most important archaeological sites, including the Valley of the Kings, Valley of the Queens etc. It is famed for its hundreds of richly decorated tombs, dating to the pharaonic period, mostly the New Kingdom (1550-1050 BC). Until fairly recently, Egyptologists and archaeologists focused their interest almost exclusively on these periods. However, the region has seen a continuous (although less important) occupation, from that period until the present day. Therefore, the remains of the later periods were very often cleared away, without any documentation and certainly no scientific publication.
For only a decade or so, scholars started to realize that this late occupation, lasting until today, is just as part of the history of the necropolis as the earlier periods. Studying these periods helps to understand how people have lived in these once celebrated places, about the history of this remote region of the Roman, Byzantine, Arab and Ottoman empires, and also helps to understand the state in which we find the pharaonic monuments (most of the pharaonic tombs have been used by locals as housing, and it is still the cas today). Furthermore, this recent part of the history of the necropolis is now disappearing, as the Egyptian authorities decided to move once and for good the houses still encroched on the Theban hills among the tombs.
In our case, we know that the hill of Gurna was settled in the medieval period by a rather small number of houses, but the only historical sources remain the accounts of early (mostly western) travellers. From the start of the excavation of tomb nr 29, our project was not only to study a tomb of the reign of Amenhotep II (Dynasty 18), but to reconstitute the history of this little part of the necropolis, from its construction until the intervention of our mission. In the course of the excavation, we found a rather large amount of pottery, of types known in the necropolis, but which has never been dated precisely (so-called geometric painted ware). Ceramologist can tell that this pottery in Thebes is later than the Byzantine-Early islamic period, and that it was not in use anymore at the beginning of the 20th century. But no more precision, thus leaving about a millennium time-span for the date of this occupation. The three coins that I presented in this post have been found associated with such pottery types, in levels between the late Byzantine ones and the modern house that settled there in the early 20th century. Therefore, for the first time, we might have some indications for a more precise date of these specific pottery types, as well as a more precise idea of the period when the tomb was visited (if not settled).
Well, sorry for this long post without direct connexion to this forum, I just wanted to provide a detailed answer to Nassif, which I feel is only the least I could do to thank for the help received from the members of the forum.
Best regards,

Laurent Bavay
Logged
Robert_Brenchley
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7326

Honi soit qui mal y pense.


WWW
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2006, 11:47:43 am »

When did they cease to make mummy burials? I'm not sure what the technical term is. I know they were still making them in the 2nd Century AD, but how and when did they come to cease?
Logged

Robert Brenchley

My gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
lbavay
Guest
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2006, 12:32:13 pm »

I am afraid we are slowly ( Roll Eyes) going out of the reach of this forum... Hope the moderators will not blame us, and promised, then I will post about coins only angel
Actually, Coptic monks in the necropolis were still buried wrapped in bandages elaborately entwined, giving them an appearance that most of us would consider as "mummy like". And that is in the mid-8th cent. AD.
But of course, the embalming techniques et practices evolved continually, starting in the early Old Kingdom (about 2700 BC), and lasting well into the Roman period. Certainly a bit later than the 2nd cent. AD. Even during the same period, there was great differences in embalming techniques, according to the social status and means of the deceased and his family. Let's say that the heyday, and "best" mummies ever made in Egypt were the royal mummies during the New Kingdom (probably the best preserved mummies ever found are the parents-in-law of Amenhotep III.
So, now, let's keep to my promise...
Thanks for your interest.

Laurent Bavay
Logged
yafet_rasnal
Guest
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2006, 12:49:08 pm »

I am afraid we are slowly ( Roll Eyes) going out of the reach of this forum... Hope the moderators will not blame us, and promised, then I will post about coins only angel

The moderator will blame you just if you stop giving these interesting informations  Grin
Logged
Nassif
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1425


« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2006, 11:57:38 pm »

Dear L Bavay;
I am really very grateful for your excellent and scholar study.As you know a lot of Forum members are collectors and it's very exciting to know how and why some items arrived to hour hands thousands of years after their emissions.Regarding my Collection,i did my best to know how and why some major coins arrived to my Collection...what a wonderful and interesting field.
Thanks again for all your help.
All the bests.
nassif
Logged
lbavay
Guest
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2006, 03:45:00 am »

You are welcome ! For some more details on our work, you can always have a look at the English page of our research research website  Grin
Direct link to the Gourna project :
http://dev.ulb.ac.be/crea/AccueilAnglais.php?page=Cheik
Best regards,

Laurent Bavay
Logged
lbavay
Guest
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2006, 05:42:37 am »

Sorry to come back to this thread. While consulting the zeno.ru Oriental coins database (found thanks to Burak's "Ottoman coins (a first guide)" thread), I found a picture of a coin that looks to me very similar to the first coin of my second post (pic 296550.jpg).
The pic can be found at :

http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=1837&cat=1424

It is supposed to be a Suleiman I AE Mangir from Egypt.
This ID woud be confirmed by the following :

http://www.osmanliparalari.com/10-kanuni-926/10-926-foto/10-mangir-926-misir-274-12x15.jpg

Shape and motifs look closer to my coin than the Murad III.
Can anyone (Burak ??) give more info about that ? Is it really a Suleiman I ? And what opinion about my 296550 being this rather a Murad III ?
Best regards,

Laurent Bavay
Logged
Istinpolin
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 413


« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2006, 07:22:32 am »

Dear Laurant

The coin on Zeni is identified wrongly. Charm's (Vladimir) special interests lie in Chinese and Juchid coins not in Ottoman Coins. If you closely look at th Zeno number of the coin you can see it is one of the very first coins uploaded almost 3 years ago. The coin on Zeno is not Süleyman I but Murad III. It has been IDed wrongly and it stayed like it for quite some time. Thanks for bringing it to my attention I will comment on the coin there.

Your coins and the one on Zeno are the most common types of Misr mangirs. In the period of Selim I, Süleyman I, Selim II and Murad III there were more than 200 different types of Misr Mangirs excluding the al-Qahira ones, of which are 27 types known.
Your coins and the one on Zeno are published in "Mangir - Copper Coins of the Ottoman Empire" by Necdet Kabaklarli, 1998, Istanbul on page 420.

12-Msr-09 is 982AH
12-Msr-10 is 983AH
12-Msr-11 is worn date

I had a hoard of almost 400 of those so I know this particular type very well.
Your very first coin is 12-Msr-11 with Tugra. The second, third and the one at Zeno are either 09 or 10 depending on the date.
The one you have seen on www.ottomancoins.com is much thinner and lighter and the ornament on the reverse is on the whole flan and not in the middle. That is a different coin. Murad III Misr Mangirs of this type mentioned above are really thick and heavy up to 20g was one reported.

Best wishes,
Burak

 
Logged
Istinpolin
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 413


« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2006, 08:10:27 am »

the coin on Zeno has now been reattributed
Logged
lbavay
Guest
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2006, 03:45:35 am »

Dear Burak,
Thank you very much for these precise explanations and precision. Now I feel reassured about the identifications.
And am very impressed by your experience in the field.
Best regards,

Laurent
Logged
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Medieval, Islamic and Crusader Coins (Moderators: AlexB, quadrans)  |  Topic: Help for ID of Egyptian coin « previous next »
Jump to:  

Recent Price Reductions in Forum's Shop


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 1.268 seconds with 53 queries.