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Author Topic: Earliest Winged Coinage  (Read 10385 times)
Kopperkid
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« on: October 08, 2006, 08:55:25 pm »

Since I know we have some great resources on this forum I would like to tap into them.

I am thinking of doing either a group of presentations or a single presentation at one of our Ancient Coin Club meetings this fall/winter. The title of the presentation(s) might be something like: "Wings on things that Nature never intended." This presentation would cover just the historical or timeline of coinage and show all the different types or I'll do each type as an indvidual and cover the variations, mythilogical or historic references. I've been doing some prelimarnary digging and think the first type is the winged boar...although it could also be a winged horse...this is were you can help. I'm looking for good images and/or articles that cover the topics. I would like to cover not only the animals, put the humanoids as well.
My original start on this project started out by trying to identify what the heck the thing is that is holding up Tyche chair/throne on coinage. It is interesting that everyone appears to have their own term with this figure.
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Jerome Holderman
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2006, 09:19:49 pm »

What the heck? Never seen that before, it looks like Nike?
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peterpil19
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2006, 01:06:10 am »

In your example, it certainly looks like Nike! In most other coins I've seen, the figure is not nearly as detailed.

I just had a quick look and it seems that most times the figure is not mentioned, sometimes described as "Nike" but most frequently described as "winged tritoness support".

Peter

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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2006, 05:36:30 am »

Griffin (winged monster) was on the very early coins of Abdera.
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Kopperkid
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2006, 10:14:59 pm »

I think I might be close with this one:

Ionia, Uncertain mint Electrum Hemistater. Circa 600-550 BC. Winged female figure running left, head turned right, holding caduceus in right hand, wreath in left / Irregular rectangular central punch flanked by two square punches.

Abdera is close:
CNG 69 , Lot 230-THRACE, Abdera. Circa 540/35-520/15 BC. AR Didrachm (7.40 gm). Griffin seated left, raising paw / Quadripartite incuse square. Unpublished. Good VF, light porosity on reverse. Unique. ($2500)

Anybody have anything else??
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Kopperkid
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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2006, 10:21:05 pm »

Almost forgot one of my personal favorite series:
Caria, Kaunos AR Drachm or Half Stater. Ca 490-470 B.C. Iris with curved wings and outstretched hands in a kneeling-running position right, looking back / Griffin standing left, raising forepaw, within dotted border in quadrilateral incuse.

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slokind
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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2006, 02:04:38 am »

Well, you're coming down close to the date of the first Corinth Pegasus.  Are there any knielauf running Medousa?  Or a winged triskelos?  And of course there are those quasi-boars, as you said.  Pat L.
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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2006, 02:54:51 am »

Hi Pat!

Nice to read of the Knielauf! Very often this kind of depiction is wrongly described as 'kneeling'. But it should be a kind of flying if I'm right! It goes down to the Persian Achaemenids and is first found on coins of Dareios where an archer (toxotai) is shown with one knee on the ground. The interpretation of this knielauf figure as king today is doubted. On Greek coins it is often Nike who is depicted in knielauf position.

Best regards
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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2006, 09:11:51 am »

BM Guide pl. 7 #6 shows an early winged hippocamp.
http://www.snible.org/coins/guide/7.html

Early winged Nike, from before 476 BC
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/sicily.html#Catana

Here is a picture of an early running gorgon:
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/etruria.html#14
I believe it's dated after c. 475 BC.  There is a different winged running gorgon in the Asyut hoard book, but I don't have a picture online.

All of these have reverse designs; I think Kopperkid's hemistater is the earliest.  Where was that coin published?  I've never seen it before.
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Kopperkid
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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2006, 10:17:07 am »

Ok  this is what I found for the Corinth Pegasus:

Corinth. Circa 625-585 BC and later. AR Obol (0.26 gm). Pegasos flying right / Quadripartite incuse square; pellets in angles.

Although, I'm just an acolyte, I am curious as to why the design is so complex and more lifelike than the rest of the coinage in this time range? Any comments?
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Kopperkid
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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2006, 10:18:04 am »

Sorry Image didn't get attached.
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Kopperkid
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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2006, 10:22:53 am »

I found it on Wildwinds.com searching for electrum and winged

This is the text from Wildwinds:
Sale: Triton VIII, Lot: 451. Closing Date: Jan
                                10, 2005. IONIA, Uncertain. Circa 600-550 BC. EL
                                Hemistater (7.03 gm). Estimate $5000 Sold For
                                $15000

                              IONIA, Uncertain. Circa 600-550 BC. EL Hemistater
                              (7.03 gm). Winged female figure running left, head
                              turned right, holding caduceus in right hand,
                              wreath in left / Irregular rectangular central
                              punch flanked by two square punches. Weidauer 175
                              (same dies); Traité -; SNG Copenhagen -; SNG
                              Kayhan -; Boston MFA -; SNG von Aulock -; cf.
                              Rosen 246 (Stater). Good VF, some minor field
                              marks. Extremely rare, only two other specimens
                              recorded by Weidauer. ($5000)

                              From the William and Louise Fielder Collection.



BM Guide pl. 7 #6 shows an early winged hippocamp.
http://www.snible.org/coins/guide/7.html

Early winged Nike, from before 476 BC
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/sicily.html#Catana

Here is a picture of an early running gorgon:
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/etruria.html#14
I believe it's dated after c. 475 BC.  There is a different winged running gorgon in the Asyut hoard book, but I don't have a picture online.

All of these have reverse designs; I think Kopperkid's hemistater is the earliest.  Where was that coin published?  I've never seen it before.
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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2006, 02:21:48 pm »

Lanz 105, Nov. 2001, Münzen von Korinth, Sammlung BCD, is recent and reflects good recent scholarship.  Here is a scan of nos. 1-7 in that catalogue, dated there to the 2nd half of the 6th c. BCE.
It is not because the little Pegasos is naturalistic, however, that the first ones now are dated later; it is the ongoing question of the date of the first peninsular Greek coins.
I can easily show you a little pegasus on a Protocorinthian perfume bottle that dates from the 7th century.  Corinthian art was remarkably naturalistic remarkably early--a naturalism that is related, probably, to the kind of sea trade that they practiced and the kinds of art that they encountered.  On the other hand, look at that pseudo-early running gorgon, 5th century.  By the second half of the 6th century, Corinthian horses on votive plaques (many in Berlin and Louvre) are much more naturalistic.
Pat L.
Here is the promised perfume bottle with a pegasus of about 650 BCE.  Whether you call it Middle Protocorinthian (end of), as Boardman does, or Late Protocorinthian (beginning of), as Amyx does, it is middle of the 7th century BCE, either way.  These little vases are 6.6 and 6.8 CENTIMETERS, about 2.5 inches, tall, so the pegasus is about the same size as on a stater.
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Kopperkid
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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2006, 09:33:14 pm »

Thanks! That is great information. Is it alright to use the images in my presentation? I'm pretty sure it doesn't violate copywrite laws.

Best Regards,

Kopperkid

I really should chang the name over to Silverkid or something like that since I am no longer collecting US cent types, but Greek silver fractions...
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« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2006, 11:44:45 pm »

I can't speak for them, but I'm sure Lanz won't mind at a Coins club in an upstanding place like Minneapolis; the dating there is consitent with that given "c 555-515" for similar coins in CoinArchives listings: that is, the introduction of the first tiny head in the incuse is placed in the last quarter of the 6th c. BCE.  But the BCD collection catalogue issued by Lanz gives on one page a series of seven nice examples.
As for the pictures of the lovely little aryballoi, I scanned them from John Boardman's Early Greek Vase Painting, but the images came from much earlier publications.  When Perseus has its pictures "up", the Boston aryballos is there, but the pictures, whether of coins or of vase paintings aren't accessible right now.
Pat L.
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slokind
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« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2006, 12:17:33 am »

If you use the little Boston pointed aryballos, Protocorinthian of c. 650 BCE, you ought to have (or might want to have) a Corinthian horse on a vase almost exactly a century later, c. 550 BCE.  Here is an image you can use for sure: it is mine, and, with the Louvre's permission, I took it for teaching.  It is a red-ground hydria (the shape imitating metal vases: note the handles) by an artist nicknamed the Damon Painter (it is his namepiece).  By this time, Athens was competing, and some of the fanciest Corinthian vases, like this one, coated the cream-colored clay with a red wash, to make it a bit gaudier.  Shortly thereafter, ambitious Corinthian vase painting ceased.  This hydria is Louvre E642, from Caere (Cervetri); the Etruscans were good customers, but so were the Greek colonies of Sicily and South Italy.
You can see why earlier authors dated the first pegasoi earlier than today's consensus: the pointed aryballos pegasos is the one that looks like them.  But, according to today's consensus, the first pegasoi were already archaizing when Corinthian coinage began.  I am sure that there is archaeological evidence for the dating; there must be lots of coins found in context as well as some in sealed hoards to date the early ones as well as the first ones with a little head in the incuse (dated same as first Syracusan ones with a little head), but I am not up on this bibliography.  There have been some authors who have tried to re-date the pottery, but the archaeological evidence still holds solid on the received dating (give or take a decade!), which I have given you.  Pat Lawrence
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Kopperkid
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« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2006, 08:54:56 pm »

I knew I could count on this fourm for expertise.

Thank you ...and thank you!
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Kopperkid
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2006, 09:48:14 pm »

Here's one that I would get if I had the extra cash. I don't think I've ever seen one with a whole lion with wing...heck come to think of it...I don't think I've seen a lion with wings!
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« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2006, 12:10:03 pm »

The winged lion on the coin probably is not quite purely decorative, but in vase-painting and on other objects (when these survive) of the seventh and sixth centuries BC, winged lions (not to mention bearded sphinxes and more fanciful combinations) are quite common.  The Greeks might be excused for supposing, initially, that near eastern artists (at first North Syrian and Phoenician ones) put wings on practically anything; there was a great variety, on metalwork, on fabrics, on furniture, on handles of fans and mirrors, etc.
Pat L.
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Kopperkid
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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2006, 11:42:07 pm »

Finally getting some time to work on some pages on the archiac winged motifs on coins and found this guy at 650-600. Any opinions. This is the text that came along with the image:
Ionia Uncertain (BC 650-600) EL Stater
ca 650-600 BC. EL Stater (14.22g). Milesian standard. Figural type. Sphinx seated left on ground line; cross with terminal pellets to left / Irregular incuse. Unpublished. Good VF. Unique. This previously unknown type almost certainly has an Ionian origin, but the specific mint remains unknown. The sphinx appears as a civic emblem on archaic coins of both Chios and Samothrace, but Samothrace did not issue electrum, and the electrum staters of Chios, although struck on the same weight standard as the present coin, are of a distinctly different style (cf. Baldwin, Chios, pl. I, 1-12). The cross with terminal pellets -- perhaps a solar symbol is exceptional by its appearance here as a subsidiary symbol. Such subsidiary symbols are rare on early electrum (but cf. Triton VIII, lots 399-405, for the use of a pentagram or a triad of pellets as symbols on the early electrum of Ephesos). The cross with terminal pellets does appear on other uncertain early electrum (cf. Trait‚ I 7, pl. I, 6) and is employed regularly as a reverse type on the electrum of Miletos (with a central pellet in addition to the terminal pellets; cf. SNG Kayhan 440-449).
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Kopperkid
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« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2006, 11:54:07 pm »

Thumbing through Sear Volume II I aslo found the elctrum piece. In here it is described as: "Upper part of winged daimon, his bearded hd. turned to r." Sear number 3442. Sear's has Jenkins (Ancien reek Coins) 14 as citation.


I found it on Wildwinds.com searching for electrum and winged

This is the text from Wildwinds:
Sale: Triton VIII, Lot: 451. Closing Date: Jan
                                10, 2005. IONIA, Uncertain. Circa 600-550 BC. EL
                                Hemistater (7.03 gm). Estimate $5000 Sold For
                                $15000

                              IONIA, Uncertain. Circa 600-550 BC. EL Hemistater
                              (7.03 gm). Winged female figure running left, head
                              turned right, holding caduceus in right hand,
                              wreath in left / Irregular rectangular central
                              punch flanked by two square punches. Weidauer 175
                              (same dies); Traité -; SNG Copenhagen -; SNG
                              Kayhan -; Boston MFA -; SNG von Aulock -; cf.
                              Rosen 246 (Stater). Good VF, some minor field
                              marks. Extremely rare, only two other specimens
                              recorded by Weidauer. ($5000)

                              From the William and Louise Fielder Collection.



BM Guide pl. 7 #6 shows an early winged hippocamp.
http://www.snible.org/coins/guide/7.html

Early winged Nike, from before 476 BC
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/sicily.html#Catana

Here is a picture of an early running gorgon:
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/etruria.html#14
I believe it's dated after c. 475 BC.  There is a different winged running gorgon in the Asyut hoard book, but I don't have a picture online.

All of these have reverse designs; I think Kopperkid's hemistater is the earliest.  Where was that coin published?  I've never seen it before.
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Howard Cole
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« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2006, 12:42:45 am »

Jenkins' 14, is an electum coin from Ionia.  In the text he states that it is "Possibly associated with the excavation finds from Ephesos ..."  His discription of the coin from the plate before page 23 is as follows.

Ionia: Winged diamon, 650-600 B.C. (half, 7.04 gm., diam. 45 mm, BM 1906; possibly from Ephesos; Robinson 67)

This seems to be the earliest coin with a winged thing that he lists in his book on Greek coins.
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« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2006, 12:56:10 am »

I know it is not the earliest, but I can't help but post my hippocamp with Melquarth from Tyre (it is on a didrachm - Sear 5914, which is really dated to 347-332 B.C.)


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Kopperkid
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« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2006, 10:06:01 pm »

Thanks for the Jenkins' reference. I'm a finally finding a few minutes here and there to get my presentation togother.

Warmest regards from Minnesota, USA

Jenkins' 14, is an electum coin from Ionia.  In the text he states that it is "Possibly associated with the excavation finds from Ephesos ..."  His discription of the coin from the plate before page 23 is as follows.

Ionia: Winged diamon, 650-600 B.C. (half, 7.04 gm., diam. 45 mm, BM 1906; possibly from Ephesos; Robinson 67)

This seems to be the earliest coin with a winged thing that he lists in his book on Greek coins.
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Kopperkid
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« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2006, 10:41:17 pm »

I have fallen back into uncertaintly on the dating of this one. I noticed that the CNG was referencing Rosen 246. I didn't notice that until now. Well, Rosen has the following for 246:
"EL 14.147 Stater. Bank Leu 20,25 Apr. 1978, 122. [I was only 7 years old!]
Obv. die of Weidauer 175-77 (halves and third). This is apparently the first stater to come to light. See Weidauer, pp. 88-89. Possibly the mint of Ephesus. The coin shows that the winged demon is not a  "Posis Qhrwu" [my greek in not the best], as was hitherto supposed for the fractions."
"Weidauer references, unless otherwise specified, are to type combinations in Liselotte Weidauer, Probleme der fruhren Elektronpragung TYPOS 1 (Frobough, 1975)."
"The overall date is seventh century to ca. 500 B.C."
Ok, so I have two issues: (a) I don't read German; (b) I don't have a copy of Weidauer.
I know it's a lot to ask, but if someone out there has a copy, can you translate and post what's on pp 88-89? A big request I know, but it would be greatly appreciated!

I think I might be close with this one:

Ionia, Uncertain mint Electrum Hemistater. Circa 600-550 BC. Winged female figure running left, head turned right, holding caduceus in right hand, wreath in left / Irregular rectangular central punch flanked by two square punches.

Abdera is close:
CNG 69 , Lot 230-THRACE, Abdera. Circa 540/35-520/15 BC. AR Didrachm (7.40 gm). Griffin seated left, raising paw / Quadripartite incuse square. Unpublished. Good VF, light porosity on reverse. Unique. ($2500)

Anybody have anything else??
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