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Author Topic: The Philosophy of Cataloging  (Read 3211 times)

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Offline dougsmit

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The Philosophy of Cataloging
« on: December 04, 2009, 09:25:17 pm »
Several threads recently have made me wonder about how I would handle questions of proper cataloging were I to author a book on coins.  (Thankfully, that will not happen but we can still wonder.)  RIC in articular is horribly inconsistent largely due to being written by so many people who obviously did not consult with one another on matters of format.  I list below several questions and ask you to consider what option you would prefer.

How great should a difference be before it is given a separate number in the catalog?  Some catalogs separate legends that have all the same letters but vary in spacing; others lump them together.  Some separate but types based on hard to see pieces or cloth or armor, front or rear angle or little variations in head ornaments; others say "bust" and let it go at that.  Some catalog dots, stars, crescents; some don't.  Some mention that a star might be found in the right or left field while others assign a new number to each option.  Some of us see a new variety when a die moves a shield a millimeter while others of us don't see the difference in a shield if it has a gorgon head or a horseman.

Should it make a difference if the most minute detail is shown or suspected of having some meaning?  For example, we might not consider legend breaks all that important but what if we find that only the senior ruler has a broken legend while the juniors are continuous?  Should we then catalog separately when the junior gets promoted and starts breaking his legends?  What if all examples of legend break 'a' are from mint 'a' and 'b' from 'b' - does that make the difference catalogable?

How do we handle letter forms that make it unclear if there was an intentional variation or just a matter of handwriting?  Are errors necessarily errors or do they, perhaps, covey a meaning that should be cataloged?  How do you handle what appears to be an error in spelling that is actually more common than the correct version?  (Here I am thinking of Septimius' SPQR OPTIMO PBINCIPI which is much more common than the 'R' version.)  Do you list the error as it reads or just as you wish it read?

Do you like whole number differences or 'trees' like '123a1b' that keep groups together?

If two rulers have identical coin types issued at the same time, do you like them cataloged together (123a and 123b) or do you prefer all your Constantine I coins on one page and Constantine II's on the next? 

RIC volume X is very different from the others by the way it lists various mints together when they issued the same reverse types.  Some earlier volumes have coins separated by many pages when the only difference between them is style.  Should we at least get a footnote that says that the type was also used by mints x, y and z? 

Do you believe that publishers of series should enforce standards of format (more or less the answers to the above questions) to make the books more 'user friendly' or do you believe that it is the God given right of all contributors to do it 'their way' no matter how strange that may seem to the rest of the numismatic community?  Certainly I realize that individual authors writing their own book will do what they see fit but do you as a consumer of a multi-volume set expect any format consistencies?  If doing this delays publication of a revision by a decade, is it worth the wait?   

...and finally:  Book format catalogs suffer greatly from questions like the above while electronic catalogs can easily cross reference and display results in multiple formats with the click of a button.  Is this a sufficient reason to issue the next generation of standard references in electronic form or are you in the camp that will never give up your hardbound copies of old favorites?   If RIC V were to be reissued tomorrow in hardcopy and electronic (indexed) format at exactly the same price, which would you buy?

Do feel free to bring up other related questions that come to mind.


Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: The Philosophy of Cataloging
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009, 11:58:47 pm »
Doug,

I've often pondered the same. Considering only the small piece of the universe that I know, Crawford in RRC

- Catalogues the three different Pompey Minatia types, which have COMPLETELY DIFFERENT reverse types, under a single number, 470/1

- Catalogues with different numbers (367/3 and 367/5) two essentially IDENTICAL denarii of Sulla, Cr367, one with legend L.MANLI T PROQ and the other with legend L.MANLI PROQ

- Catalogues the entire coinage of Rome under Caesar in 44BC as a single number (Cr480) and under the Triumvirs of 42BC as a single number (Cr494), but repeats this behaviour nowhere else in the catalogue. It would have been consistent with his treatment of the rest of the corpus to have split the coinage into its moneyers - who always mint separately - Mettius, Buca etc.

Flexibility to add extra numbers is a key to cataloguing. Despite the above examples, I think Crawford's approach was admirable in defining the main catalogue number according to the issuer/mint/year (variations in any of the preceding cause a new main number, but not variations in type), then the main subsidiary number according to major type variations, and then the variation letters added. All older catalogues (eg Sydenham) had a simple one-dimensional number which means that a new type really throws the numbering. In Crawford's system a new type by an existing moneyer is created simply by adding e.g. 367/6 to follow 367/5, without disturbing the sequence. Crawford dealt with the few cases where a complete moneyer needed to be added by adding a capital A or B to the closest catalogue number, e.g. 367A/1 would be a new type by a new moneyer dated around the same time as 367.

There then comes the thorny question of what a "type" is. In the RR it is perhaps easier than in the Empire. A moneyer for a given year defines a main catalogue number e.g. 367. It's the "issuer" that defines the type. Where this is less clear, then periods may need to be defined (eg according to the titulatire of Octavian which moves from IMP CAESAR to CAESAR DIVI F).

Then, within a main catalogue number, a type number is (normally) defined where EITHER the figurative pictures change significantly, e.g. head-left rather than head-right, Mars rather than Venus etc., OR the legend is quite different in some meaningful way that is not just a change in orientation (upward rather than downward) and not just an expansion or contraction of a name or abbreviation (the 367 Sulla varieties should have failed that test!). A change in title (e.g. presence or absence of IMP, or of S.C.) would be significant, but not the same message just spelled differently.

These smaller variations (e.g. minor changes in text) merit a variation number e.g. 367/5b as distinct from 367/5a. Now we are at a third level, and once again new variations can be introduced without altering the basic number. A similar approach can be taken for minor varieties in type, e.g whether a sceptre is in right hand and globe in left, or vica versa, or the presence of tongs, hammer or anvil on the Puteal Scribonia. Although small changes however, these are clearly deliberate - a switch between tongs and hammer, or between placing a legend above rather than below the Dioscuri, are not slips of the engravers tool.

Finally there is a fourth level, which relates to variations that are probably accidental rather than deliberate. Although this is a matter of judgement it's usually easy to spot. IMPE rather than IMPER or IMP, or some small accoutrement on the reverse type having been missed off a die. These are dealt with by a footnote "Two dies were noted with the legend IMPE" or similar.

Next, a really fundamental point:

All the best catalogues over the ages refer to an actual coin example as illustration. This has tremendous merit because if there is controversy about the cataloguing then someone can pop into the ANS, look at the coin and resolve it. I am reminded of an episode in the West Wing, where a character with time on his hands due to awaiting trial, finds out that there is a variation in the readings of a comma in the US constitution. Quite properly, he gets the congressional librarian to look at the original, and the librarian concludes that "it could be a smudge or could be a comma". Many such instances occur in numismatics, and one I like to point to concerns the below pictured coin, an As of the Pompeians in Spain minted by the legate Eppius; Richard Shaefer in his write up of the Goodman bronzes (reported here on my website: http://andrewmccabe.ancients.info/Introductory.html#GoodmanBronzes ) noted that his example of the type oddly disproves a previously accepted type, and replaces it.

His offstruck obverse is absolutely clear in its reading PIVS IMPE, whereas Crawford quotes PIVS IMP F. The reading PIVS IMP F give in Crawford rests on Bahrfeldt’s statement in NZ 1909 that of the 38 examples he found in European museums and collections, three showed PIVS IMP F, one in Kiev and two in Paris. The Kiev example was probably lost in WWII but the other two are in the d’Ailly collection in Paris. Richard Shaefer has examined all the EPPIVS Asses in the d’Ailly collection but none show the F clearly. Thus, surprisingly the Goodman specimen is enough off centre to be the first published example with a complete lower obverse legend, clearly reading PIVS IMPE. Sextus Pompey was telling the Roman world that he was not just the son of a famous man but had been acclaimed Imperator himself, hence this coin is also historically important. Woytek, in Arma and Nummi, goes on to illustrate this actual coin which he discusses in the text, a classic example of how the careful eye of an amateur student can lead to an established numismatic fact published in the greatest books and journals."

The point is, BECAUSE Crawford cited the actual coins in Paris, Richard could visit Paris, and see for himself that, as with the smudge/comma in the constitution, Crawford's reading was ambiguous and thus Richard could confidently replace Crawford's reading with his own. Lacking such an actual coin to refer to, we would be left in confusion between Crawford saying that the coin reads IMP F, and Richard reading the coin as IMPE.

Finally, another fundamental point:

Since the best 20th century catalogues e.g. Crawford but many others, all cite ACTUAL COINS, then the best 21st century catalogues should consider re-using the old numbering which refers to an actual description of an actual coin, and then rearranging the order of the catalogue (whilst still keeping the numbering the same) and slotting in new types which have been found, or alternately, if adopting a new numbering system, linking it in a concrete way to the old system through referring to the same actual coin examples. Thus "NewCat/123/A = Crawford/456/2 (same coin, BM12345)".

That way ambiguity is avoided which could result from choosing different examples of actual coins as type illustrations, leaving the reader pondering is Cr/456/2 really the same as NC/123/A or something different.

If I ever get around to recataloguing the Republican series, the number will be of some format that either keeps Crawford and just moves the dates around and add infills, or of a new format that provides a direct link to the Crawford. For example I am contemplating dividing the Republic into some 30-50 historic periods, in line with the arrangements of my coins here:  http://andrewmccabe.ancients.info/index.html#quick and then for each period keeping the Crawford number but with a prefix number that indicates the period, e.g. XIX-456/2. That way, I can do the historical rearrangemetn that I think is appropriate eg reflecting the Mesagne hoard date, whilst keeping the existing catalogue numbers intact.

And on your final question: web versus paper: I think there will be less of a dilemma in the future. As illustration, I am currently preparing a print-out of my web-site and its associated catalogue or RR coins, for personal use as well as family gifts. The whole website unbelievably runs to some 450 printed pages, which of course have no concurrence at all with the website page layouts. However, it has proved quite a lot easier than I thought; a PDF writer programme enables to run live-printouts of the current status of the website, properly organised according to catalogue number; I then intend to print a limited number of copies. In six months, when someone wants another copy and the site is now 473 printed pages, I can very easily check which of the webpages have changed, do a new pdf of those pages and reassamble the whole into a "June 2010" version which will be more up to date than the "Christmas 2009" version. The point is that such techniques will in future years become normal: when you want a new print of RIC VIII in the year 2018, you will visit the website, click "assemble and print", and somewhere in the bowels of a publishing house 1 copy will be printed and mailed to you, including updates to that date. RPC has gently started leading the way, with amends to RPC now being published online (and free) in pdf format only, but in the same physical format as the book so they could be printed by you and bound in. I suspect in 5 years, the entire RPC will be available in such a format, correctly rearranged with the new coins added on the appropriate page, and with the provision of bank transfer data (we will all be like the Europeans by then and have foresaken credit cards and paypal in favour of direct internet transfers) your own copy will be printed, bound in hardback and shipped to you (probably by air from China!) without the intervention of a single human hand.

From the perspective of the cataloguer the important point is to develop your resources in such an electronic format that will be amenable to this technology as it becomes more widely accepted. That means databases with inividual records and some form of sorting, rather than fixed web-pages or fixed text-pages. Once again, in producing my own catalogue print, the fact that I was inputting my coins into a database that could be printed in catalogue format, rather than into a fixed-format webpage, has made the process a lot easier. Have a look at Blackwells "Espresso Book Machine": in two years they will be pervasive and capable of printing in colour and binding in hardback.

http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/jsp/editorial/browse/espresso.jsp

So the choice between digital and paper format will not be a choice in the future: information will be updated digitally, and printed on demand.

Wow, that was a flood of thoughts Doug, but you awakened a subject I am keenly interested in.

Offline Danny S. Jones

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Re: The Philosophy of Cataloging
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2009, 12:29:39 am »
Although I am an ardent collector of the printed page, the RIC is a resource that would be more easily accessed via electronic means, and eventually I believe all reference material will be accessible as such. I cannot imagine the thousands of hours of labor that have gone into putting together the RIC series by its various authors. It would be wonderful to see a more structured and consistent format throughout, but that might take another generation to be done. If the data could be entered into an electronic database, the time could be shortened exponentially.

I envision an entrepreneur designing coin software such as Moneta which would be used by collectors to catalog their coins and also peruse electronic reference material which could be bought and added separately depending on the users needs (i.e. RIC, Crawford, Cohen, BMC, etc.)

Ideally, sometime in the future, all the separate references along with newly discovered variants could be combined in a super-database reference work available in both electronic form and also in print, (though it would be a series of books larger than the Encyclopaedia Britannica.) This undertaking is hypothetical of course, but I believe it will eventually happen, barring the outlawing of collecting ancients in the future.

Regards,
Danny

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: The Philosophy of Cataloging
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2009, 12:46:57 am »
It would be wonderful to see a more structured and consistent format throughout, but that might take another generation to be done. If the data could be entered into an electronic database, the time could be shortened exponentially. I envision an entrepreneur designing coin software such as Moneta which would be used by collectors to catalog their coins and also peruse electronic reference material which could be bought and added separately depending on the users needs (i.e. RIC, Crawford, Cohen, BMC, etc.)

I fully agree with the direction, but I think the tool will likely not be dedicated software such as Moneta - such software is single purpose, computer based, and regressive by nature. Rather I think the online versions of current pictorial-catalogue-databases (such as Flickr, which is what I use) will have improved to such a great extent that Jane could write her cookery cook with picture and recipies in the same database that Jill write her coin catalogues. In essence both are simply databases that combine pictures with information fields and that present both in a pictorially attractive and printable format. Flickr is already a quite adapatable tool as regards layout and cataloguing and look-feel and printability. It will be increasingly easy to drop a front-end web-based-tool on top of Flickr2012 that allows you to format your output so that it looks like a cookery book / coin catalogue / whatever, and the webby widgets that allow you to do so will probably be open-source tools. I'd envisage paying $2 by internet bank transfer, on my FacebookPhone, for a web-based widget that allows me to format my Flickr date for printing purposes so it looks like a coin catalogue. The future lies in open and flexible format internt tools; the tools are already arriving so all that numismatists have to do to prepare is make sure your catalogues are in a good online database (and with a sensible numbering system!).

Offline Danny S. Jones

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Re: The Philosophy of Cataloging
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2009, 01:21:41 am »
If the database in question becomes an amateur collector database with end user input over the internet, it will indeed be as you say. However, if we are talking about converting existing printed reference material into an electronic format, there will be a greater cost, as publishers will expect to receive revenue from their sales.

I've often thought that an internet site where collectors could enter their data and coin photos via a strict set of guidelines would be the ideal way to compile a database, especially if you could involve dealers who wouldn't mind contributing their data. Of course, each coin would have to be tediously cross checked for accuracy. That is, and would be the downfall of such an idea.

Danny

Offline mauseus

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Re: The Philosophy of Cataloging
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2009, 06:36:14 am »
Hi Doug,

A very good read is "The Analysis of Reasonings in Archaeology: the case of Graeco Bactrian and Indo Greek Coinage" by Guillaume (trans Boppereacchi). Whether you know nything about this coin series or not it examines the choices one makes when deriving a chronology and catalogue as well as doing a cross check of the decisions that a number of cataloguers of that particular series made. It's a cheap OUP India book that was remaindered a few years back.

Even with the advent of computer spreadsheets there is the need for explanation of the reasoning behind the cataloguing decisions so the written text is still required if you want to understand a series.

Regards,

Mauseus

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: The Philosophy of Cataloging
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2009, 08:00:21 am »
I've often thought that an internet site where collectors could enter their data and coin photos via a strict set of guidelines would be the ideal way to compile a database, especially if you could involve dealers who wouldn't mind contributing their data. Of course, each coin would have to be tediously cross checked for accuracy. That is, and would be the downfall of such an idea.
Danny

This idea is being explored at the moment elsewhere (I probably can't link to it...). I hope it does work out but I fear that the management effort to verify other-peoples coins input with their poor photos, incorrect descriptions and uncertain expertise as to their authenticity, may well overwhelm such a system.

In history, good catalogues are generally achieved through a single corpus (An SNG museum catalogue, a Collector catalogue) where there is, in the end, a real expert to provide consistency and look at every single coin. My own online version of Crawford now includes some 1,400 coins from my own collection as well as a further 400 coins filling the gaps (specially in rarer Aes Grave and gold) from the out-of-copyright 1910 edition of BMCRR and the out-of-copyright 1910 Haeberlin Aes Grave catalogue. That's as good a quality check as one could get. Would I input my coins into a large open-source database run by others? Not if it meant that 10% of the database entries were fakes, 20% were incorrect or incomplete attributions and 70% were ho-hum repetitive examples of common coins in poor condition. I wouldn't mind teaming up with another large RR collection to present the best-of-both on a single site, with the two persons providing the expert adjudication, or indeed teaming with several experts, but the idea of seeing my carefully catalogued coins mixed up in an online site with thousands of common, poor condition and partly misattributed coins fills me with dread. It would result in a loss of expert information by overwhelming it with noise, such that the carefully attributed descriptions and real rarities could not be distinguished. Indeed it is for this very reason that I chose to separately present my coins on an internet site whose integrity and contents were entirely 100% controlled by myself. Probably that's a regressive step, but it's a defensive move to preserve good information without being diluted by noise and errors.

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Re: The Philosophy of Cataloging
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2009, 08:26:56 am »
I have a public database site for postal history here: http://www.philamercury.com/browse.php that has worked very well with people of all skill levels entering their own material. I started by using a system of "editors" with permissions to edit owner descriptions - with the caveat that they had to write the owner with the reasons for any changes. The editors I selected were based on my knowledge of those editors expertise as well as their integrity. I have had no problems with this "vetted" approach since I started it a couple years ago.

The key has really been the organization of the database and the query systems that allows drill-downs, sorting of results, as well as searches. On the coin sites I have seen, the problem for me is that I can not manipulate the results in an adequate fashion. I would like to be able, for example, to see silver, and then by date, or subject, or whatever.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: The Philosophy of Cataloging
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2009, 04:43:36 pm »
When it comes to dividing types or varieties, it's always going to be a matter of judgement, which means that cataloguers will always disagree! If you take Hasmonean coins, for instance, Hendin doesn't divide them into enough types to be useful; if you only use his book, you're going to get into a muddle. Kaufmann, on the other hand, divides varieties on the basis of minute differences, many of which are just a matter of how many letters the engraver managed to squeeze in. They have no significance, and the significant variations are buried among the rest. For me, TJC gets it about right. When it comes to Postumus, the presence or absence of a prow on a Neptune reverse, or horns on the river god on the SALVS PROVINCIARVM reverse, may or may not have been significant at the time, but they're regular variations, and ought to be recorded. I think RIC V lumps together coins which ought to be differentiated.
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: The Philosophy of Cataloging
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2009, 05:27:25 pm »
When it comes to dividing types or varieties, it's always going to be a matter of judgement, which means that cataloguers will always disagree! If you take Hasmonean coins, for instance, Hendin doesn't divide them into enough types to be useful; if you only use his book, you're going to get into a muddle. Kaufmann, on the other hand, divides varieties on the basis of minute differences, many of which are just a matter of how many letters the engraver managed to squeeze in. They have no significance, and the significant variations are buried among the rest. For me, TJC gets it about right. When it comes to Postumus, the presence or absence of a prow on a Neptune reverse, or horns on the river god on the SALVS PROVINCIARVM reverse, may or may not have been significant at the time, but they're regular variations, and ought to be recorded. I think RIC V lumps together coins which ought to be differentiated.

For me, the dividing line for varieties is whether it was deliberate - would the mintmaster have wanted it - or merely a matter of expediency (running out of space for letters) or accident (misspelling, or leaving off some small feature). I don't try collect to such matters of expediency or error unless they result in wonderfully bizzarre or obvious results. Sometimes one finds proper varieties (under my definition) which are single-die varieties, but the difference is so clear from the standard that it wasn't obviously an accident. In some cases these may have been amongst the first dies made, or some other form of trial or proof.

The test I use for a type (consisting often of several varieties) is whether it was intended to convey a different numismatic message than another type. Absence or presence of entire words/messages. Different figuration. Etc.

Generally I find these tests - was it a deliberate design choice (variety) does it convey a different message (type) resolve 99% of dilemmas.

The stamp site of Pseodolous is wonderful in its own right by the way, I found myself buried in "covers" when I dived in, speculating over an envelope from Germany to the US that was 5 pfenning postage short, computed as 6.1/4 gold centimes in international currency, doubled to 12.1/2 gold centimes for a fine, and paid by way of 2 cents postage by the addressee in the US. All those stamps and inscriptions and calculations for the sake of 2 cents that would have been partly refunded (in aggregate) to the German post office by way of the IPU! I can see the attraction to collectors.

I also wanted to make an on-list acknowledgement to Pseodolous regarding what he says about search capabilities, on something we had a little offlist chat about, but where I entirely missed the point and he was entirely right. I only now realise my coin site is not properly searchable in the way described. My site is searchable for anything you want. It's not however sortable in the way the stamp site is - one can search for denarii of Julius Caesar, and one can go to the sets that portray coins of Julius Caesar, but one can't view my organised coin sets in a manner that only displays coins of Julius Caesar, or so that my coin sets only displays silver etc. You can either search for what you want, or you can use my view of the coinage but fancy combinations don't work. A proper flexible database should let you do fancy combinations. Partly its a deliberate choice - I want you to see coins the way I want you to see them, which I decide - and partly of technical capability limitations. One clear choice I've made long ago is that I didnt come into numismatics in order to be forced to be an IT Specialist in order to optimise how I present numismatic information (I have the same attitude about photography by the way). I would rather spend my time reading coins books and looking at coins than designing databases or fiddling with camera setups. So far as possible I try to build on easy-to-use open tools that allow me to present a lot of high quality numismatic information with a minimum of compromise. There's always going to be compromises however and I'd rather compromise on the technological presentation than on the numismatics.


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Re: The Philosophy of Cataloging
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2009, 09:23:42 am »
Types of Varieties - A didactic approach used my most philatelitsts might be of germane to the discussion. If the issuing entity recognized or intended a stamp to be a new design, the stamp is worthy of a major catalog number. This is not always easily determined and is basically what Andrew noted. Within that major number are subcategories which may relate to the stamps having ben printed from different plates which have minor differences. Stamps from each plate may again include constant errors as well as non-constant errors.

Extrapolating to ancient coins:
1. Major number for each deliberately different design
   A. Differenent Dies for obverse / reverse (each die pair given a unique sub-number)
         a. Constant varieties (those that may be fond in mutiple examples incl. such things as die breaks)
         b. Non-constant variaties (production errors)

Andrew - Thank you for your kind comments regarding my census site. Much of my frustration with the ancient coin sites I have seen is the inability to sort initial search results. I have often wondered about what coins were in circulation outside the Roman Empire at a given point in time. Very hard to integrate information from multiple databases ...

Offline Roma_Orbis

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Re: The Philosophy of Cataloging
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2009, 10:36:52 am »
That's an interesting discussion. Of course the principles of printed standard references (like RIC, Cohen for the Roman Empire) are now kind of 'obsolete' and new online available digital compilations must be designed and made available, with updates available within weeks rather than decades, with still the possibility of a snapshot being printed at any time if necessary.

As an example, I was thinking of what the data model should be to be able to describe entirely the Roman imperial coinage (my main area of knowledge). Then I'm now trying to enter the different types for some emperors, to validate the model. For that, I'm using Excel (somehow in the Helvetica fashion), which is very convenient to sort upon very various criteria. I've identified about 60 different fields, mandatory or optional. However, it's not very convenient for illustrations/pictures, though it is possible.
Now the biggest task is feeding the beast; I've practised it for the early empire, Claudius and Caligula, but this kind of work should rather be a team work, as it will require hundreds of hours just to input the regular entries of RIC/Cohen, not to mention the new types published in specialized works!

Jérôme


 

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