Salbris Hoard

[Jay G]

I am wondering if anyone can provide me with any information about the Salbris Hoard found in France c. 19th century.

How many coins were found? When were they found?  Were they mostly Gallo-Roman?

thanks

[Robert_Brenchley]

Just a couple of coins sold which allegedly came from it. I can't find any details of the hoard itself. Both seem to have been acquired by Baldwins from the collection of William C Boyd, but there's nothing to say where he bought them.

[leetoone]

Hi

I have a Claudius Ant from the Boyd Collection that has its original label with it from the turn of the century (19th/20th that is!). It records that it was a "Salbris find".

I was under the impression that it might have been a site find rather than a hoard. But I would be delighted to be proved wrong or simply get some further information.

I'll check whether I have any other notes when I get home and make a further post.

Lee

[Jay G]

At the NY Public Library I was able to find a text printed in 1900 in France by A. Blanchet that recorded finds in France and neighboring countries in the prior century and before.

Salbris is in the neighborhood of Sologne in Loir et Cher. There was a find in 1882 of eight coins of Postumus from Sologne which is approx. 30+/-km from Salbris. I was told that Boyd would have purchased an entire find usually and that Salbris was likely a larger find....though one would think that if it was indeed a larger find there would be a record of it in Blanchet to say the least.

My suspicion is that it was either called something else by the French, or that it was not a reported find...something that came to market through the backdoor where the provenance "Salbris" was recorded but little else about the find. I hope I am wrong, but my conclusions are beginning to lead in that direction.

Also, Baldwins was able to provide me with no additional information.

BTW, my coin is an Ant of Postumus circa CE 265-268...also from Boyd...the provenance being written as follows:

Provenance:
William C. Boyd (1840-1906) Collection, Baldwin's Auctions (42), 26 September 2005.
Acquired by Boyd from the Salbris Hoard (Sologne, Loir-et-Cher, Centre, France).

[leetoone]

My ticket definitely says Salbris find as opposed to hoard. So do the tickets of two coins of Postumus recently offered for sale by York Coins (was yours one of these?). Perhaps York Coins could provide a reference or did they just assume that it was a hoard? Perhaps someone at the Bibliotheque Nationale de France could help?

I wonder how many of the Boyd collection were recorded as "Salbris find"?

More to come later.

Lee

[leetoone]

My ticket reads:

"126 Claudius Gothicus C10 fcc
  AEQUITAS AVG
  Equity standing l.
  Salbris find"

My assumption is that this is one of the coins sold in the Boyd collection in lot #650. I bought it on eBay in October last year, as well as two other Claudius ants (separate eBay lots and not Salbris provenance) from the same Boyd/Baldwins auction lot. One of the ants was not listed in RIC but is listed in Cannakale.

Best wishes

Lee

[Jay G]

Lee
My ticket reads FIND as well. York just put the word hoard in their provenance.

I haven't thought of contacting the BN, though I did try CGB just to have no response and nothing of any consequence from Baldwins.

Perhaps if we work in tandem maybe we can come up with something reasonable....I don't have the Baldwins cat for the Boyd sale and I don't know how much info could be gathered from it regarding other coins from Salbris.

In addition, there is a Maximinus AR Denarius now available with the following information that leads to an idea after.....The Maximinus has a Boyd provenance from the "Cambridge Find":
 
William C. Boyd (1840-1906) Collection, Baldwin's Auctions (42), 26 September 2005.
Purchased by Boyd himself from Sadd, April 1897.
Ex Cambridge Hoard, (Cambridge, England), 1897.
 
W. C. Boyd writing in the Numismatic Chronicle in 1897 records that: "At the end of last month, I was enabled to secure, I believe, the whole of a small find of Roman Denarii which had been dug up before in the neighbourhood of Cambridge..... "

The hoard is recorded in Robinson's Inventory #447 and is listed as containing 155 Denarii and 52 Antoninianii, from Clodius Albinus to Philip II, with a deposition date of A.D. 248 onwards.

Perhaps we can review the NC to see whether or not Boyd mentioned Salbris sometime between 1880-1906?? Unfortunately, I don't have access locally to old issues of the NC.


Jay

[Robert_Brenchley]

I wonder whether Boyd distinguished clearly between 'hoard' and 'find'? To me, a hoard is a specific type of find, while the latter term would cover anything. It's beginning to sound as though he just put everything down as a 'find'.

[leetoone]

Jay

I have the Baldwin catalogue. I will have a look through it this evening. When I was in Baldwins a couple of months ago they were giving away surplus copies of the catalogue. I will be down there again in a couple of weeks, if they have any left I will get a copy for you.

Best wishes

Lee

[Jay G]

Lee
that would be appreciated. Should you be lucky enough to find it send me a message and I will provide you  with my email for further info

thanks much.
Jay

[Jay G]

Robert
To HOARD is the act, which I think ultimately becomes a passive activity once the hoard is saved and placed in its special location it does nothing until it becomes a FIND. Perhaps the words in the 19th century had interchangeable meaning that have become separate since then.
I would be interested to see what the OED reveals about the meaning and relationship of the two words.
thanks
Jay

[Jay G]

BTW, Adrien Blanchet's book is Les trésors de monnaies romaines et les invasions germaniques en Gaule,   published in Paris in 1900.

The copy I found at the NY Public Library was in very poor condition due to the fact that the paper was not acid free and was quite brittle to the touch.

It has since been reprinted and is an interesting history of hoards in France found mostly in the 19th century though some prior to and in neighboring countries as mentioned previously.

[slokind]

Jay: I think 'hoard' as a noun, and it MAY be a noun, means coins found contained (howsoever) as they are when someone has hoarded them (like the old lady's jar full of pennies or cents or Pfennige) or in an emergency hidden them and failed to recover them (in that case likelier silver or gold in a vase or rotted pouch).  It is understood that hoards are uncontaminated by isubsequent inflitration of additional money of different periods or kinds and usually in better condition thanks to protection.
But owing to Fund being used (I think, and my Brockhaus says so) in German where in English we say hoard, Fund / find is one of those pairs that in learning the German language we call 'false friends'.  We'd call a field or a stratum rich in coins and stuff a 'find' and reserve the word 'hoard' for a  confined concentration that we could demonstrate with reasonable confidence was not accidental.  For example, an ancient inn that offered lots of betting and drinking to the troops might be quite a find (also for shapes and types of cups and gaming pieces, even hand weapons), but the coins in that space would not be a hoard.  The coins constituting his Capital that the innkeeper secreted under the floor of a closet when he heard that the Goths were coming, on the other hand, would be a hoard--or a Fund.
Pat L.

[Jay G]

Pat
thanks for the discussion of Hoard & find....
I find it a hoard of knowledge...this caused me great pain to write.

sorry.

[leetoone]

Jay

I couldn't see anything specific about the Salbris "hoard" in the catalogue, but if there were other coins with the same provenance, they would probably have all been sold in bulk lots, grouped by emperor rather than provenance.

However, in the foreward to the catalogue it refers to his "neat leather bound notebooks" that were not sold but were returned to his family. They would probably tell us more about the Salbris coins. Perhaps Baldwins might be able to pass on a message. I'll check.

Lee

[Jay G]

After patient searching, I have encountered two sources....one being Boyd himself. The first appears in the 1905  Jahresberichte der Geschichtswissenshaft (Berlin, F. B Abraham etal) that notes "...700 denaren v. Valerianus bis Aurelianus in Salbris (Loire)" and notes the source as being the "Archaeologischer Anzeiger" (1903).

More importantly is a note found when I searched the Numismatic Chronicle for 1903. In there in the Proceedings for January 15, 1903 I found the following " Mr. Boyd gave an account of a find of Roman coins made at Salbris, near Romorantin in the Department of the Loire. The find consisted of six to seven hundred base denarii extending from the reign of Valerian to that of Aurelian, AD 253-275, and included many pieces of Gallienus, Postumus, Victorinus and Tetricus I and II" (page 10).

It appears that the hoard was likely found in or around 1902.

I think this information will finally end the quandry those of us have had who have been seeking information on this hoard. It also explains why it did not appear in Blanchet (his work being published several years before in 1900).

[leetoone]

Well done, Jay!

Many thanks for your efforts and eventual success.

Lee

[Jay G]

Lee,

It would be interesting to see if Boyd finally wrote a detailed report of the find in 1904 or 1905?

I don't have ready access to those issues of the NC, but perahps the date of deposition is the period of unrest right before the collapse of the Gallic Empire. The Aurelians are included to top off the hoard?

Just reaching the answer, raised a number of additional questions as is often the case.

cheers
J

[black-prophet]

Congrats Jay and leetoone on your diligence and ultimate success in tracking down the details and provenance of this hoard.This was a fascinating post and follow up.I for one think this belongs in the Classical Numismatic section.Nice Job!

[leetoone]

I have finally gotten around to scanning the introduction to the Boyd auction catalogue. It's just three pages but quite interesting. If anyone would like a copy, PM me with your email address and I'll send it on.

[Jay G]

Lee

Thanks, for some reason I am getting a failure when I try and send an email through my account. I hope you get a chance to see this. I appreciate your efforts and thank you for your thoughtfulness. I was able to get a copy from a friend a year or so ago so I am all set.

thanks so very much.

Jay

PS: do you have another email address?