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Author Topic: An Apple of Immortality  (Read 3888 times)

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Offline slokind

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An Apple of Immortality
« on: June 23, 2006, 04:01:18 pm »
At several mints (Philippopolis, Nicopolis and Marcianopolis, Hadrianopolis, et al.) Severan reverses have Herakles returning with the apples of the Hesperides, the Apples of Immortality, but the complete figure is (a) rare on small coppers, and (b) at Nicopolis, in AMNG at least, it is only for Caracalla and only as Caesar.  The suggestion of quasi-divine immortality, as well as the association of Herakles with Commodus (the Antonine pretention), and with Alexander before him is plain (as co-Augusti Septimius and Caracalla have the bust of the Lysippic Weary Herakles, but not the Apple).  Did the child take all that seriously?
This coin, also, seems still to be scarce or rare, but my principal reason for showing it is the very high quality of the rendering of Herakles on the reverse; the coin is not quite 16mm in diameter.  There are larger standing Herakles aplenty, but none better than this one, I think.
Pat L.
22 06 06 Æ 15.5mm  3.71g  axis 1h.  Nicopolis ad IstrumCaracalla, bareheaded, bust to r.  M AV K    ANTÔNIN (acc to Berlin and Sofia).  Rev., Bearded Herakles stg. r., leaning on his knotty club in his l. and, with the Nemean lion's skin over his forearm, holding an apple of immortality in his r. hand.   NIKOPOL    PROS IST (Pick does not record the lambda on his specimens).  Pick, AMNG I, 1, p. 398, no. 1498, citing Berlin Cat. 79, 37 "ungenau" and Sofia.  The Herakles (nos. 1386-1389) on coppers of Septimius are not listed with the apple.   

Offline curtislclay

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Re: An Apple of Immortality
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2006, 04:36:45 pm »
Pat,

Apparently Hercules usually holds a pile of apples of the Hesperides, not just one; see AMNG pl. XVII.14-16.

On the Berlin and Sofia specimens of your coin, Pick presumed Hercules might be holding apples, but couldn't actually see them:  "holding lionskin over l. arm and, probably, apples."

Other possibilities for the l. arm would be lionskin only, or lionskin and bow, AMNG pl. XVII.13 and 17.

Is the l. arm clear enough on your coin to say, "definitely apples"?

Yours,

Curtis
Curtis Clay

Offline slokind

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Re: An Apple of Immortality
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2006, 06:13:30 pm »
Well, when I checked, lo and behold, I also have Pick's reverse die without the lambda in the ethnic, definitely a different die, not nearly the artistic foreshortening and contrapposto of the Herakles, and at 15mm even smaller (but the portrait of the boy, of course, is better).  So I'll post the true (no variations in legend) Pick 1498 as well.  Pat L.
13 04 06  Æ 14/16  1.30g  axis 1h.  Nicopolis ad IstrumCaracalla as Caesar, head to r.  Traces of M AV K    ANTÔNIN (but that listing is a bust).  Rev., Herakles stg. r., leaning on the club in his r., extending his left arm over which is draped the lion skin (and as Pick says he probably held an apple or two).  NIKOPO    PR[OS I.  Pick, AMNG I, 1, p. 398, no. 1498, which also is tiny, Æ16.   
P.S. My new one is the true 1498 (bust) obverse
Same die pair as this one, but apples seem evident, and Lanz thought so
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=115221&AucID=131&Lot=879

Offline curtislclay

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Re: An Apple of Immortality
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2006, 06:27:15 pm »
On the new coin some removable deposits seem to be obscuring what H. is holding!

The coin needs a bit more cleaning, but I know that is something you do not do!

Curious how H's pose and the way he holds the club vary slightly in the two renderings.
Curtis Clay

Offline slokind

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Re: An Apple of Immortality
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2006, 10:21:33 pm »
I think the difference may be more significant than 'slight' might suggest, but there are too many with bow or with apples, from Ant Pius through Caracalla, to post them all, and they aren't quite consistent, though the straight arm and easy stance goes rather with the bow, and the bent arm and shot pelvis rather with the apples.  I'll start by putting up the Gallus for father and son.  The questions are (a) do these hold apples, and (b) if this were done for a 16mm die, what would they look like?  Pat L.

Plus a M. Aurelius and an early Septimius.  Can someone place the M. Aurelius for me, while we're at it?

21 06 04AE25 **** 9.29g  axis 6:00.  Marcus Aurelius, head to r.  M AVRELIOS OV    EROS[illegible].  Rev., Herakles in 3/4 view to r., leaning his r. hand on club, with drapery over l. arm, traces of bow certain in his l. hand.  Ethnic may end in MOmegaN.

21 04 03 AE 28  Nicopolis ad Istrum.  Issued by Auspex.  Septimius Severus, laureate, head to r.  AV KAI SEP      [SEVEROS PER]--the rho may be there.  Rev., Herakles, bearded, nude stg. frontal, facing r., leaning his r. on the club and, with the lion skin over the forearm, holding bow in his r.  VPA [POL AVSP]IKO    S NIKOPOLI PROS IS.  Pick, AMNG I, 1, p. 356, no. 1257.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: An Apple of Immortality
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2006, 10:32:12 pm »
Looks like three apples for Caracalla on the second coin, and for Septimius too on the first, since it's the same rev. die.
Curtis Clay

Offline slokind

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Re: An Apple of Immortality
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2006, 10:45:58 pm »
OK, and here's the other pose:
11 09 01 AE 27.  Nicopolis ad IstrumSeptimius Severus, laureate, head to r.  Issued by Pollenius Auspex.  AV KAI SEP     SEVEROS P[ER]--nothing discernible after pi on this example.  Rev., Herakles stg., head turned r., leaning on his club in his r., with the Nemean lion's skin over his l. forearm and holding a bow in his l. hand.  VPA POL AVS[PIKOS NIK]OPOLI PROS IS.   Pick, AMNG I, 1, no. 1257.

15 12 06 Æ19 5.17g  6h  Anchialos.  Antoninus Pius, laureate, head to r. ;AVT KAISAR    ANTÔNINOS .  Rev., Herakles, stg. r., weight on his r. leg, club to ground in his r. hand, l. arm flexed (lion skin draped over it), bow in his l. hand.  Like a mid-5th-century statue in stance and proportions.  ANChIA    LEÔN.  Strack, AMNG II, 1, p. 222, no. 421, Taf. VI, 6.

Pat
The two Auspex coins are of course the same dies, but the second one shows more detail.

 

Offline slokind

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Re: An Apple of Immortality
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2006, 05:47:58 pm »
Another interesting distinction: yours, which is AMNG I, 1, Taf XVII, fig. 16, is the same pose of Herakles as ibid., fig. 15, which is Severus Alexander, Marcianopolis also, no. 1064, issued by Tereventinus. That is, Herakles transfers his weight to his l. leg to move to the r. while looking back over his shoulder, to the l.  I don't pretend to have every Herakles coin outside of Hadrianopolis (where competition is fierce, because of the whole set), but I find not one Herakles regardant among my Nicopolis ones, where, when H. looks left, he moves left: he has transferred his weight to his far / right leg.  Luckily for me, the Herakles I want are basically just standing there, the sort of Herakles only an art historian can love, so mine are mostly either with bow or with apples.  On the other hand, there are a couple of type matches between Philippopolis and Nicopolis, but I have too few Phlpp to generalize.
Pat L.

Offline Marius

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Re: An Apple of Immortality
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2006, 01:02:54 pm »
I found a nice picture of the famous Farnese Hercules sculpture from the rear, showing the apple he has behind his back:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farnese_Hercules

Here is another where hercules holds the apples in a bowl before him:

http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/old_fotm/old_fotmja98/

Of course if you want your own. you can get it here: 

http://www.time-line.co.uk/x5667.html

Quite a contrast to the Lyssipic Farnese.

I am sure this has been brought up before somewhere, but many ancient coins show Hercules picking the apples himself, but it was Atlas who had actually picked them.  Heres an antoninianus of Maximianus:

http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/cng/069/enlarged/691728.jpg

and a Alexandrian drachm of Antoninus:
 
http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/cng/059/enlarged/591786.jpg
Richard Marius Beale
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Offline slokind

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Re: An Apple of Immortality
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2006, 03:49:57 pm »
A friend informed me privately of this coin of Flaviopolis-Flavius in Cilicia: SNG Levante Suppl.  Julia Maesa dated equiv. to 220/1.  It proves, I think, that the one with strong déhanchement illustrated above by my second one and the ex-Lanz one from the same die pair, together with the matched tetrassaria issued by Gallus for Caracalla and Septimius (all above) are indeed a distinct type or at least variant of a type, a variant that the ancients would recognize as such, of the Herakles returning with the Apples on the palm of his hand.
That means, I think, that the very classical sober posture of my new Caracalla is a die engraved by a man who had a classical-style prototype, like the one of Antoninus Pius at Anchialos (last of mine above), in mind.  Given the condition of the obverse, it doen't matter much in 'value', but the new one probably is a very rare little copper.  But I'd rather it were less rare and I could learn whether it had a bow or apples: most of the more classical-looking ones have the bow.
P.S. I want to thank Marius for posting that fine variety of Herakles types, especially the apple-bearer from Hadrian's wall and the two Hesperides coins (one of Maximianus!) which I failed to find for the Deultum Hesperides threadPat L.
P.P.S.  And here it is at Philippopolis for Septimius, issued by Barbarus, so rather early in his reign--but reversed.

Offline slokind

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Re: An Apple of Immortality
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2006, 04:42:32 pm »
One thinks one will scream if one hears one more TV commerical about 'thinking out of the box'.
But that's what is in play here.
Curtis coaxed me to look into the difference between the new coin and April acq./Lanz one, but it took the Barbarus die to make me put 2 + 2 together.
I long have treasured my practically matching Barbarus and Tertullus tetrassaria with Herakles holding a Bow; posting the Barbarus with the Herakles & Apples reverse made the synapses WORK.
The new little Caracalla is CAESAR (196-198); I thought the matching Herakles with Bow meant (pace Boteva) that Barbarus is contemporary with Tertullus, who was hypateuôn in 198 when Caracalla became Augustus.
I now suggest that my new coin is the little copper for the little Caesar that goes with the Tertullus and Barbarus pair.
As often, they share obverse dies (but with several other reverses, too), but the Herakles with Bow (if that is true) would be given a separate AMNG number by Pick; it is a different Herakles idea, not just a question of a lambda or not in the ethnicPat L.

Offline slokind

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Re: An Apple of Immortality
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2006, 03:45:15 pm »
May I bump this thread to add Gallus Plautilla to its Herakles resembling the little Caracalla at its head?  The accession comments date from its acquisition:
03 05 04 AE 26  14.39g  axis 7:30  Nicopolis ad Istrum.  Issued by Gallus.  Plautilla, bust to r.  PhOVL PLAV    TILLA SEBAS (Pick 1632 for this die).  Rev. Herakles stg. to r., his r. hand resting on his club and his left, oustretched, with the lion skin and bow (this is the rather rare Pick 1631, for which the Naples specimen, described by Pick, clearly has a different obv. die).  [VP AVR] GALLOV NEIKOPOLITON and in exergue traces of [PROS I].
Anyhow, it's the same kind of Herakles, and it strongly suggests that on the die we began with the tiny Herakles held a bow; with his weight on his r. leg, a bow then?  Pat L.

Offline whitetd49

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Re: An Apple of Immortality
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2006, 11:21:40 am »
I've come up with a new specimen that looks to be a die match with Pat's coin at the head of the thread.   It has a slightly larger flan, AE 17 and clearly shows a single apple grasped by Herakles.
If you watch long enough, even a treefrog is interesting.  Umberto Eco
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10349

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Re: An Apple of Immortality
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2006, 01:47:58 pm »
Here's another "lefty" like gordian_guy's....

Joe W.


Offline slokind

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Re: An Apple of Immortality
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2007, 04:53:26 pm »
Here is a nicer specimen of the same coin as heads this thread: it is AMNG 1498 (but with a lambda in the ethnic), and the question is still whether "wohl ein Apfel" (probably an apple) on the Berlin specimen is one or, as I suspect, a bow: does it refer to the Tree of Immortality or to the Stymphalian Birds
A bow still is not evident, but I think apples are less so (almost precluded).
What is signifcant is the stance (see also the coins featured in Replies #6, #11, #13, #14): the weight is on Herakles' right leg, and the left leg is forward, as in the Kassel Apollo, to name the most famous statuary type, of c. 450 BC, much beloved, as E. Schmidt showed in Antike Plastik V, in the Antonine age.
This stance, as well as the pyramid of globes, apples, distinguishes the clear-cut Apples of Immortaiity examples, above, from Caracalla's noble tiny Herakles: the Apple holders have their legs more apart, and they seem to balance back and forth rather than to be so intent on contrapposto of the Attic variety.
There is also a Tertullus Caracalla Herakles of which I have a very faint ghost, which Pick describes straightforwardly as "with a bow", AMNG 1525.
• 23 06 05 Æ25  9.53g  axis 6:30h  Nicopolis ad Istrum.  Issued by Tertullus.  Caracalla, laureate, draped bust to r.  AV. K. M. AV[R]    A[NTONEI]NOS .  Rev. Herakles stg. to r. (if beardless, then 'young' as Pick says), in his lowered r. hand his club resting on the groundline; in his outstretched l. hand his bow; over the l. forearm the lion skin.  VPA OOV [TERTVLLOV NIKOPOLI PROS I(continuous).  Pick knew one specimen in St. Petersburg.  He says, whether it is AVr  or AVRH is uncertain, still more so on mine, and The rev. is very similar to or perhaps the same as that of Severus, above no. 1276.  Just so, but I think they were in either case issued as a pair.  Varbanov  I, 2446, cites only AMNG I, 1, which means the Petersburg coin.
Pat L.
N.B., I've been sharing Curtis's doubts (Reply #1 above) and pursuing an answer for nearly a year now.  I do think that the absence of palpable apples, the not much later Tertullus for Caracalla, the Gallus for Plautilla, and the very distinctive stance (already loosening and abandoning strict Classical ponderation on Plautilla's) all show that this is a distinct type of Herakles, that featured by Barbarus at Philippopolis and by Tertullus for Septimius at Nicopolis, with a bow.  (The Auspex for Septimius, with a bow but a rocking stance, is the odd one out.)

 

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