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Author Topic: Constantine's Conversion and Ambiguity  (Read 124768 times)

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gavignano

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Re: Constantine's Conversion and Ambiguity
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2006, 10:07:01 pm »
Has anyone read Michael Grant's relatively recently written Constantine the Great? I thought it was a very interesting read. Her portrays him as a shrewd political mind, yet gives every indication he finds his conversion genuine - as do I. Perhaps the most significant event in the history of Christianity after what was described in Acts had to be the Battle of the Bridge - the world has never been the same. Grant devotes considerable prose to the dream.  Joe

Offline wolfgang336

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Re: Constantine's Conversion and Ambiguity
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2006, 11:00:36 pm »
I don't think anybody is really doubting the authenticity of Constantine's conversion (my question was to motivate discussion), but from the way this thread has developed, where the controversy lies is in the motivation and the events surrounding the two visions.

Does anybody know if Constantine had ever offered sacrifice himself? He came to power and removed that limitation (I think), after Diocletian had re-established it.

Evan

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Constantine's Conversion and Ambiguity
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2006, 08:30:24 am »
Hi Joe,
I think Grant's book works as an "appetizer" to get someone interested in Constantine, but the organization of the book by subject matter rather than chronology, and lack of an attempt to synthesize who Constantine was really limits it's usefulness, as does the lack of source references.

A book that I'd much more recommend is the recent "Constantine and the Christian Empire" by Charles Odahl which I posted a mini-review of here:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=21458.0

However, if you are really serious about getting to know more about who Constantine is, then your best bet is to go to the original sources, many of which are available in translation (Aurelius Victor, Eusebius, Eutropius, Origo Constantini, The Panegyrici Latini, Zosimus are all available in English). Once you have a better idea of what the basic known facts are about Constantine, you'll be in a much better position to judge the biases, emphases and omissions of the modern books about him. Don't just read Eusebius, or you'll come away thinking that Constantine was a saint, which he surely wasn't!

I'd also recommend the "catalog" to the 1700yr anniverary exhibition being held in York, which I've just finished reading. To call it a catalog is a bit misleading - it's 280 pages of which half is essays related to Constantine, and half is very detailed scholarly descriptions (& photographs) of many of the exhibits. If you think of Constantine as a Christian, then it's quite startling to see a cameo of him together with Fausta and Crispus in a biga of centaurs, himself holding jupiter's thunderbolt!

http://www.constantinethegreat.org.uk/

Ben

gavignano

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Re: Constantine's Conversion and Ambiguity
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2006, 09:45:13 pm »
Ben - thanks for the great post. I am going to read Odahl's book - it sounds interesting. I also read the posts that followed the review. This will sound incredibly simplistic compared to the quality scholarly analysis on the board, but in Constantine, I find someone early on searching for the power behind the events of the world - and when he learned of a montheistic faith with a strong, powerful God - he liked it. He liked it because it meant the forces behind the actions of himself as leader and ultimately Rome, were united with the powerful God. And he had a direct line to God. Ultimately in his last years, I think he came to also like the God Jesus spoke of - merciful, just, and personal to everyone. Some of his edicts regarding immoral behaviors (although probably influenced by bishops and other behind the scenes folks) are so conservative that he seems like a modern day member of the religious right....
About the coins - Sol, etc. I don't have any problem interpreting these actions. As  he was a military guy, and with most of the Senate as card carrying pagans, I would have been shocked to see an abrupt shift to a policy of no pagan symbols, especially on coins. As his confidence in Christianity evolved, so did his symbols.
Constantine at times seems like  almost a person with OCD, yet this string of patient shifts in public policy makes  him a most complex man...
Regarding his lack of sainthood, agreed. I would have hated to be the P.R. guy for him after the Fausta thing..... He reminds me of the Robert DiNiro character in a film whose name escapes me - he played a highly flawed Christian preacher - yet still a Christian. If Constantine  got tattoos as a youngster, I am betting they were of Jupiter ....  Joe

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Constantine's Conversion and Ambiguity
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2006, 09:04:02 am »
Joe,
I hope you enjoy the Odahl book - I'm sure you will.

Beyond any personal reasons that we may only guess at, it seems that a large part of Constantine's religous devotion (whether to Sol or to the Christian god) also had to do with divine patronage and protection.. it seems it was usual at this time for the emperor to associate himself with a divine patron/comes, which helped elevate his own status (and I'm sure that this was helped by talking up the divine relationship and power derived from it), and in return for offering vows to one's god one would also expect favors to be fulfilled.

In Constantine's case Eusebius (who might be expected to put the most pious spin on things) records Constantine's "searching for an alternative" as being for the practical benefit of protecting him better than the pagan gods (although this seems to rather finesse the distinction betweeen the older polytheistic religion which Constantine increasingly rejected and more recent solar monotheism which he clung to), and Constantine put a major emphasis on using the Labarum as a battle standard and the victory in battle that be believed came about because of the Christian god. The practical issue of whose god is most powerful seems to have been a major consideration in religion during these early years, and for example we see Christian apologists needing to defend the acts of Christ compared to those of Apollonius (a contemporary pagan holy man and miracle worker).

Constantine's Christian god seems to have been one to be feared for his power and potential retribution (per various quotes from Constantine) more than revered for his mercy, although Christian adherents were themselves indeed admired for those qualities, and it's been suggested that care-giving within the Christian community may have had a considerable effect on it's growth.

Ben

Offline Dk0311USMC

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Re: Constantine's Conversion and Ambiguity
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2013, 11:25:27 pm »
One aspect that I have hardly read on this board and elsewhere, is the fact of Constantine's mother Helena's influence and devout faith.  She was a very devout Christian, and from what I have read in the past, had a close relationship with Constantine.  It only makes sense to me that Constantine would have become aware/familiar with Christianity through his mother, in addition to all that has been discussed before this post.  Helena was eventually made a saint by many Christian churches. A title certainly not given easily out.    I am not sure if Helena was always a Christian even when Constantine was young, but it only makes sense that they would have had some influence on each other's faith, especially when his mother was brought to court and made Augusta.
   It seems like it is still debatable about when Constantine may have actually considered himself personally a Christian and pursued the faith actively on a personal level. Again with his mother by his side and her pilgrimage to the holy land eventually to find Christian relics, I can't imagine that the relationship didn't influence his faith at all. 

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Re: Constantine's Conversion and Ambiguity
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2013, 03:52:37 pm »
It can't have been that hard for the mother of the guy who legalised Christianity and had an enormous influence on the church to be canonised! Constantine himself is a saint in the Orthodox Church, despite decidedly unsaintly behaviour. I don't know how devout she really was, but her 'discovery' of so many holy sites, plus the 'true cross', must have gone a very long way to ensuring sainthood. I don't thnk there's any doubt about the relationship though.
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