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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Medieval, Islamic and Crusader Coins (Moderator: AlexB)  |  Topic: Charlemagne coins 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Ecgþeow
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« on: March 04, 2006, 07:58:11 pm »

Hey,
I always thought that there were only three or four examples of Charlemagne coinage.  Then while I was looking, I saw a respected dealer who had two silver deniers of Charlemagne.  Are there a lot of them (relative to the three I thought)?

~Zach
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2006, 04:31:02 am »

Hi Zach

There are not many IMO, but one can see some of them on auctions a few times in a year. One of them is fammous to show a portrait of Charlemagne. It is in the bibliotheque nationale de France in Paris

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mauseus
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2006, 08:57:47 am »

Hi,

In The Carolingian Coins in the British Museum 15 examples of deniers are listed plus another 8 gold and 1 silver of Grimoald with Charlemagne.

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Mauseus
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Ecgþeow
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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2006, 09:12:22 am »

It is amazing that these coins could be from the same Emperor.  The ones in the link look so haphazard and even barbaric, whereas the one you show is so perfect, and is clearly modelled after late Roman coins.
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basemetal
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2006, 07:05:07 pm »

True Zam...the above looks like a combination of Nero and Vitellius. Sigh...and Charlemagne is portrayed as a lean hardbody something like Mel Gibson in Braveheart...lol
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slokind
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2006, 07:56:14 pm »

Well, the revelatory coin looks quite like the little equestrian bronze in the Louvre of him or an immediate descendant (inspired by M Aurelius as the coin in by Roman coins): a frankly fat Frank.  Pat L.
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Rupert
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2006, 02:05:17 pm »

Charlemagne coins are rare, but not extremely so.

For non-specialists like me, they are often hard to distinguish from the much commoner coins of Charles the Bald (Karl der Kahle, Charles le Chauve, I don't know how exactly he's called in English- 840-877 AD). I guess specialists will find it just as easy as telling coins of Constantius I and Constantius II apart.

Since the empire was large, the style of the coins varies widely. The example with the portrait above is, of course, an extremely rare chef-d'-oeuvre.

Rupert
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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2006, 10:52:03 am »

Collectors:

If you are going to go after a definite Charlie-Magnie, you are facing an expensive proposition.  Most of his coins go for $1,000 and up; however, there's a fudge factor.

Buy the book first.  The book to get is:  Georges Depeyrot.  "Le Numeraire Carolingien Corpus des Monnaies."  Moneta  [Wetteren, Belgium] and/or Maison Florange [Paris], 1998, 314 pages plus many pages [unnumbered] of drawings and plates, numbered 1 to 4.

I got mine from Sue Hagadorn at
shagadorn@shagadorn.com

I find that the author studied 31 examples of my Charlemagne [768 - 814] coin from Melle [604] that was issued 771 - 793/4. [CARO-LVS in 2 lines/Medolus in a circle] This is a definite Charlemagne, second issue.  I suspect that it would sell for well over $1,000 these days.  It never leaves my bank vault.

Charlemagne's first and second issues were melted down when the third issue appeared.  Issues 1 & 2 can be called mostly scarce, not rare.  Going into the pot also were all the coins of Charlemagne's father, Pepin, the Short [754-768].  Word of mouth says that 100 examples of Pepin's coin exist FROM 40 MINTS.  I think there might be a few more in these days of metal detection.

Number 606 is a denier of either Charlemagne or his grandson, Charles the Bald [840-877]. [+CARLVS REX FR cross/+METVLLO in monogram].  The author studied 5,754 examples of  606.  Any dealer asking $1,000 for 606 is dreaming, because the collector can not be sure it's a Charlemagne.  Also, for a Carolingian coin it's outstandingly common.  I got mine for about $100 in EF+++.  I call it the fudge-factor Charlemagne.  Mine is labeled "Charles, the Bald."

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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2006, 10:00:33 am »

HUMDINGER CHARLEMAGNE FORGERY

Those after coins of Charlemagne should check out:

Philip Grearson and Mark Blackburn.  Medieval European Coinage. 1.  The Early Middle ages (5th-10th centuries).  Cambridge University Press.  1991 reprint.

A plate labeled "Forgeries (3), pp. 626 & ff., exhibit Number 1514, a denaro of Pope Leo III and Charlemagne (800-814) forged in the mid-19th Century by Cigoli.

A real "penny" of Charlemagne/Leo III [Berman 14] is the most desirable Charlemagne of all issues.  It advertises his coronation as Emperor on January 25, 800.  The Charlemagne side reads CAROLVS with a monogram IMP [meaning "The Emperor"] in the center.  It rates as scarce, but it is highly sought after.  The French want it; the Germans want it; museums want it.  It is almost a foundation coin for a European historical series.  Here we have the Emperor and the pope who crowned him on one coin.  I have never laid eyes on one in a private American collection.

The Grierson book does not exhibit a real one.  It does show an issue of Leo III, probably issued 795-800 without Charlemagne.  See Volume one pages 560-573 for plates showing "Papal and Papal Imperial Coinage, 731-983."

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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2006, 09:43:26 pm »

Dear FF,

Very interesting commentary! I have enjoyed it.

Levon

P.S. On these Depeyrot books, how does one get them? I tried emailing Moneta, but there either seems to be a language barrier, or they are not responding.
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« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2006, 07:49:20 pm »

I got my Depeyrot, "Le Numeraire Carloingien Corpus des monnaies," in the gol old US of A.  Send an e-mail to Sue Hagadorn:

shagadorn@shagadorn.com

She will give you the price etc.

Also, enter Sue hagadorn into your search engine, and her site will appear.

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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2006, 09:21:43 pm »

Thanks. For the moment I am broke after another purchase, but I think I will have an easier time with Sue than those Belgians. : ))

Levon

P.S. Maybe this topic should be moved to Classical Numismatics: FF's comments here are quite valuable.
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2006, 11:05:55 am »

I see one very important collector site of karolingian coins is missing on this thread, nl Tom Oberhofers site: http://home.eckerd.edu/~oberhot/index.php

Have fun reading!

Bohemond
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