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Author Topic: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC  (Read 57116 times)

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Offline curtislclay

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Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« on: March 02, 2006, 11:12:19 am »
   Members should please notify me or record in this thread, with image, weight, die axis if possible, any unpublished imperial coins of Vespasian, Titus, Domitian and families, that they have in their own collections or know of from elsewhere, and would like to have recorded in the new RIC.
   I am currently reading the drafts by Ian Carradice and Ted Buttrey, and can see that any new coins are included.
   Of interest are all new rev. types, legend variants, bust varieties, even variants of the placement of SC (field or exergue) on the bronze coins.
Curtis Clay

kerux

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2006, 04:10:41 pm »
Curtis,

There are 2 Flavian Imperials at the Unlisted Ancients Registry (UAR) site on Yahoo. I have included links & the info I have:

UAR5RI - Vespasian_Denarius (from the collection of Ras Suarez of Dirtyoldcoins)
               Variation of RIC 5, Cohen 10 etc. All known varieties have the complete legend
               "COS ITER TR POT". 2.99 gms - 19.3 mm
               http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/unlistedAR/photos/view/8810?b=11

UAR8RI - Domitian_Aureus (from the collection of Michael Moriarity)
               AV Aureus, 7.56 gm., Obv: laureate head of Domitian right (IMP CAES DOMITIANVS
               AVGGERMANIC) Rev: Minerva stg. right on vessel, owl at feet, holding javelin and
               shield (PMTRPOT IIII IMP VIII COS XI PP). 3 known, unlisted.
               http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/unlistedAR/photos/view/8810?b=5

Joe W.



Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2006, 05:01:59 pm »
I know that I have shown this one before but here it is anyway!

Vespasian Dupondius
Obv:IMP CAES VESPASIAN AVG COS III, Radiate head right, globe on neck
Rev:VICTORIA NAVALIS S - C, Victory standing right on prow, holding wreath and palm
Minted in Lugdunum. A.D. 71
Reference(s) – RIC II 481 var (Not listed in RIC with this bust and legend combination)
Weight 10.95 gms. Die Axis 180 degrees.



I have added the comments made by Curtis when I last posted it:-
"“A coin like yours, from the same obv. die, was in M&M's Voirol Sale of 1968, lot 385, ex Hall Sale, 1950, lot 1203. A second spec. from that same die pair is publ. by Giard, Lyon, 42/1a, pl. XLIII, Coll. Gricourt.
BMC 809 pl. 38.7 has obv. CAESAR not CAES and a broader portrait on shorter neck.
Paris doesn't have this type on a COS III dup. of Vesp. at Lugdunum, but their As, Paris 812 pl. LXVII, is from the same rev. die as your dupondius!"

Regards,
Martin

Offline Jochen

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2006, 06:18:48 pm »
Hi Curtis!

I too have a coin variant not listed in RIC. I think you have it in your records because I have it from Harlan J. Berg. Nevertheless I will show it here:

Domitian AD 81-96
AR - denar, 3.45g, 19.78mm
obv. IMP CAES DOMIT AVG - GERM PM TRP IIII (with line above)
        head laureate r., Medusa head with wings, snakes, aegis on shoulder of portrait
rev. IMP VIIII COS XI CENS POT P P
       Minerva, draped, standing l. with spear
       (Minerva type 4)
RIC II, 65 var; BMC 80; Paris 83; RSC 180a
Scarce; EF, exquisite obverse and very elegant reverse

RIC and Cohen have POTES in rev. legend!

Best regards

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2006, 07:59:42 pm »
Thanks for bringing these four coins together.
The first one is apparently unique, and will be cited in RIC from this spec., which Ian C. and I already noted when it came up on eBay a few years ago.
I'll have to see whether and from where Carradice and Buttrey cite that Domit. aureus.  The draft has only progressed to the middle of Vespasian's reign.
The third and fourth coins again will certainly be in the new RIC, probably cited from Hall Sale/Giard and Paris 83 respectively.  Knowledge of these new specimens may affect the rarity ratings.
Curtis Clay

Offline Tom Mullally

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2006, 08:30:51 pm »
The first coin is from my own collection, but I believe Curtis already has the info on that coin.

Tom
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Offline David Atherton

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2006, 08:34:13 pm »
Here is a denarius of Vespasian's in my collection unlisted in RIC, RSC and the BMCRE:

Obv - IMP CAES VESP AVG PM
Rev - Vespasian in Quadriga

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2006, 08:36:41 pm »
So far Tom's denarius is cited from its eBay occurrence.  Send me a PM if you want it to be attributed to your coll. by name!
I believe Vespasian70 has already been in touch with I. Carradice regarding his quadriga denarius.
Curtis Clay

Offline Tom Mullally

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2006, 11:33:02 pm »
Joe,

A large portion of my collection has been photographed by Ras, and my coins are found thruout the Dirty Old Coins website and as plate coins in ERIC.  I attributed this coin for AAH a couple of years ago, and had my eye on it the second I saw it!  It is one of my favorite coins.  I really like the Vitellius-like portrait.

Tom
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Offline Bobicus

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2006, 07:40:00 am »
Here is my own contribution.  I have shown this coin here before.  I include it because the current RIC (800) listing is in error, and because my coin is in much better shape than the specimen the BM has.

Here are Curtis' prior comments:

Quote
  The coin comes from a rare series of Flavian bronzes apparently struck in Asia Minor in 77-8 AD.
      With this exact reverse, Jupiter standing l. holding thunderbolt and scepter, RPC 1474 pl. 69 still knows only the single worn and holed BM specimen that Jochen refers to.  This piece is from different dies than yours.
      RPC correctly describes the scepter, which is weak but present on the BM coin.  RIC, by oversight, omits it.  So the proper RIC reference for your coin is not RIC 800 variant, but RIC 800 corrected.  Your coin is the same as BM 893; RIC 800 has merely misdescribed that identical specimen.

Bob
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2006, 11:44:47 am »
Bob,
    Thanks for reminding me of your coin, which certainly deserves mention, perhaps also illustration, in the new RIC.
    I surely printed out the image before, but many of my printouts are still lying around in stacks waiting to be cut out and filed!
Curtis Clay

Offline Marius

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2006, 04:07:54 am »
Hi Curtis,
I posted this coin here once before in coin-of-the-day.  This Dupondius is not listed in RIC, although it is listed by BMC.  It is unusually heavy at 19.6 grams.
Best regards, Richard
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Offline Rupert

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2006, 04:33:36 pm »
Here's another specimen of the coin Bobicus posted, sold in Ebay a few months ago for 123€, not to me, unfortunately.

Rupert
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Offline Rupert

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2006, 04:43:50 pm »
Now for my Flavians.

My newest resource is RIC, so I'm sorry if my coins which are not in RIC are published in other references, like BMC.

First, here's a denarius of Domitian. It belongs to RIC's Third series for 81 AD, and the reverse differs as follows from the coins listed there:

RIC 11 has this coin without the PP on rev.
RIC 13-15 have this rev. legend but not this type.
RIC 22 has this coin with an additional TRP at the beginning of the legend.

Die axis is 6 o'clock.

Rupert
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Offline Rupert

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2006, 04:48:12 pm »
Next is a restitution as for Tiberius from Titus.

It's a variation of RIC Titus 212, the difference being the word RESTITU instead of RESTITUIT in the inner circle on the rev.
RIC lists this rev. for Drusus but not for Tiberius. Die axis is 12 o'clock.

Rupert
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Offline Rupert

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2006, 04:54:11 pm »
Third is an as of Domitian from 87 AD (Cos XIII), almost RIC 352 with two differences:

The obv. has the laureate bust with aegis (RIC 352 is without the aegis).
the rev. has the probably erroneous legend FORTUNAE PUBLICAE instead of FIDEI PUBLICAE.

Die axis 6 o'clock, unusually thin for an as of this period, sorry, I still don't have scales. :-[

Rupert
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Offline Rupert

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2006, 05:00:57 pm »
Last but not least, the small bronze (semis? quadrans?) of Titus I already showed you last year in this board. Meanwhile, a die-identical specimen has shown up in NAC auction 29, lot 512:

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=98896&AucID=105&Lot=512

See here for details:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=17512.0

Die axis is 12 o'clock, max. diameter 17.5 mm.

Rupert
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2006, 05:10:40 pm »
Rupert's first is RIC 11 corr.; the coin quoted by Cohen is Elberling Coll., Domit. 5, pl. III, which indeed has P P at end of rev. legendCohen has simply misdescribed it, and RIC took over Cohen's error without bothering to check the source!  A rare legend variant in any case; the normal form in this issue is TR P COS VII DES VIII P P.  Will be interested whether Carradice and Buttrey know other actual specimens of this coin.
Second:  Komnick, Restitutionsmünzen, Titus no. 7.2.  He knew four spec., from two obv. and three rev. dies.  It's off flan on Rupert's spec., but the obv. legend erroneously calls Tiberius IMP III not IMP VIII.  Rupert's coin is from the same obv. die as the clear spec. Komnick illustrates, pl. 1,  ex Leu-M&M 1967, Niggeler 1174.
Third:  I suspect FIDEI PVBLICAE overstruck on FORTVNAE AVGVSTI, with FORTVNAE persisting from the first strike, rather than FORTVNAE PVBLICAE wrongly engraved on one die.  Such overstrikes are rare and highly interesting since they suggest rapid, alternating use of two different rev. dies at the same obv., as I have explained elsewhere.
BM 400 is a normal FIDEI PVBLICAE with aegis on neck of portrait.
Fourth:  Thanks for the reminder on your coin and NAC reference.  Yours is a lot clearer IMP PONT than theirs!  Will see whether Carradice and Buttrey know this legend variant, assuming they cover this issue in RIC.
Curtis Clay

Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2006, 11:09:01 am »
QUESTION ON REPLY 1

WHOSE PORTRAIT LOOKS RIGHT ON VAR. OF RIC 5, COHEN 10?

That looks like Vitellius to me, not VespasianCOS ITER nails it to 71/72.  The face is not the Vespasian that I am used to.

I realize that portrait of previous emperor with reigning emperor’s legend happened later in the Empire.

Could it be a hybrid portrait?  The die cutter did not know what Vespasian looked like, so he did an interpretation?

Perhaps, Short of Sight

Follibus Fanaticus
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2006, 11:31:27 am »
COS ITER is in fact 70, the first year of Vespasian's rule at Rome, Vitellius having been killed around 20 Dec. 69.  Vespasian was COS III in 71, COS IIII in 72.
Vitellius-like portraits are well attested on Vespasian's gold and silver struck at Rome in 70, for example BMC pl. 1.7.
Since Tom's coin is the only aureus or denarius of Vespasian in 70 to omit the title TR POT, one could assume it was his very earliest issue of the year.  The Vitellian portrait tends to confirm this dating.
Curtis Clay

Offline frederic W

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2006, 03:52:32 pm »

R/IMP VIIII COS XI CENS POT P P
Not in RIC
http://www.fredericweber.com/domitien_denier_germanie.htm


And not unpublished but I want to know why the differents hairstyle of Jilia Titi are not signaled in RIC.
I have this exemple in my collection with a rarer type that usual one :

http://www.fredericweber.com/julia_titi_dupondius_vesta.htm

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2006, 06:17:06 pm »
Thanks for the image of your new variant of this rare and interesting Domitian denarius, which was not known to Ian Carradice when he wrote his dissertation on Domitian's coinage in 1980.
Changes in the hairstyles of ladies have generally not been described in standard catalogues; RIC II was simply following the established practice of Cohen and other earlier authors. 
Similarly beard growth for men, say Caracalla and Geta or Macrinus, has usually not been mentioned in the descriptions of their coins. 
Sabina was an exception for the ladies: her two main hairstyles are so different that cataloguers have generally felt obliged to distinguish them!
I think changes in female coiffure and male beard length should be described in future revised RICs!
Curtis Clay

Offline frederic W

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2006, 06:23:33 pm »
You're welcome, you can use my picture, I can send you a better definition if needed.

Offline nummus

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2006, 09:28:44 pm »
Hi Curtis,

I am very happy to contribute to new volume II of RIC. We have had a coin for sale recently that was not listed in RIC, BMCRE, Carradice work and BN, please see:
 
DOMITIAN (81-96 AD), AR Denarius (3.42 gr. 20 mm). Struck April, 85 A.D. UNPUBLISHED VERY RARE RRRRR

Obv: IMP CAES DOMIT AVG GERM P M TR P IIII, Laureate head right, aegis at point of bust
Rev: IMP VIIII COS XI CENSO-RIA POTESTAT P P, Minerva standing left; holding thunderbolt and spear; shield at feet.

RIC II -; BMCRE 79 var. (legend); Hunter -; BN -; RSC -; Mazzini -. Flan flaw in field, good VF and rare.
Apparently unpublished with this legend. Reverse legend itself very rare. Similar specimen in lower grade sold at CNG Electronic auction 98, lot 126 for US $258.00. Very rare. For the specialist!

Same lagend appears only on Germania seated type of reverse. There are several known  specimens (also unpublished) with same legend but Minerva standing left, holding spear, left hand on hip (no shield, no thunderbolt as on our specimen). Also, legend on those specimens is written counter clockwise. A real gem!

There was a record sale of same coin at CNG Electronic auction 98, lot 126, so it may affect rarity ratings. You have my permission to use images.
Thanks again,
Sveto Kovacevic
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2006, 09:56:39 pm »
Thanks, Sveto, for the reference to these two coins and permission for RIC to use your excellent image if desired!
I find I have written in this coin from two other sources in my BMC:  my own coll. ex eBay, Sept. 2003; and Forum's stock 11616, Sept. 2005.
Curtis Clay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2006, 04:41:49 pm »

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2006, 09:44:56 am »

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2006, 04:29:57 pm »
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2006, 04:43:56 pm »
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2006, 05:04:23 pm »
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2006, 03:44:07 pm »

Offline Marius

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2006, 11:59:34 pm »
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2007, 05:43:41 am »

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2007, 03:59:42 am »

Offline frederic W

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2007, 11:44:23 am »

Offline mdelvalle

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2007, 12:32:00 am »

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2007, 09:51:28 am »
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Offline Rupert

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2007, 11:51:11 am »
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2007, 07:53:23 pm »
Curtis Clay

Offline Arminius

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2007, 01:33:49 am »

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2007, 04:41:54 am »

Offline Rupert

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #61 on: November 10, 2007, 05:43:15 pm »
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline Arminius

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2007, 03:43:45 pm »

Offline Rupert

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2007, 03:02:43 pm »
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2007, 03:26:33 pm »
Curtis Clay

Offline Aleph

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #65 on: February 03, 2008, 10:38:13 am »

Offline Rupert

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2008, 01:00:23 pm »
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2008, 04:56:09 pm »
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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2009, 08:31:00 am »
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2009, 09:00:10 pm »
Curtis Clay

Offline Rupert

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2010, 05:26:58 am »
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline Arminius

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2010, 01:00:29 pm »

Offline Rupert

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2010, 01:12:57 pm »
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline tito labieno

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #73 on: June 26, 2010, 02:50:44 pm »

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #74 on: June 26, 2010, 05:49:05 pm »

Offline David Atherton

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #75 on: June 28, 2010, 01:21:22 pm »

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #76 on: June 28, 2010, 01:34:53 pm »
Curtis Clay

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Re: Get your unpublished Flavian coins into the new RIC
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2010, 04:43:29 pm »

 

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