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Author Topic: constantine and christianity  (Read 10695 times)

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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2006, 01:14:48 pm »
I rather tend to agree with you, though not everyone would.
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Offline wolfgang336

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2006, 06:00:02 pm »
Quote
Throughout his reign, Constantine continues to portray himself on coins as a sun god.


This simply isn't true. His coins promoted the cult of Sol Invictus, but do not glorify himself as the god.

Evan

Massanutten

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2006, 08:13:34 pm »
  And if memory serves, near the end of his reign even that was abandonded in favor of themes that were completely vanilla vis a vis religious associations (with the single exception of the votive coins which do not declare which God is being petitioned!).

vic9128

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2006, 08:38:02 pm »
It is not so much what Constantine said or did, but rather what he didn't. By 324, Constantine was the sole ruler of the Roman Empire and:

"he did all this without attributing his success in any way to correct religio toward the ancient gods. It was in this pointed abscence of piety toward the gods, as the traditional guardians of the empire, that his subjects came to realize that their emperor was a Christian."

Peter Brown The Rise of Western Christendom  p 61.



Massanutten

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2006, 09:07:29 pm »
   Hello Victor!!!
      Was Victory still a personification of the ancient religion for his Dafne coins (328)?  Or had she become by that time an empty symbol for the word as we know it today?

vic9128

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2006, 09:18:01 pm »
Bob, the answer for that question will never be known, but only speculated about! Paganism and Christianity went hand in hand for centuries. By the late medieval period, there were still rural areas in Europe that were actually more pagan than Christian- even though they professed to be Christians. Two books that really cover this subject well (the interactions between paganism and Christianity) and both written by Ramsay Macmullen are:

Christianizing the Roman Empire A.D. 100-400

Christianity & Paganism in the Fourth to Eighth Centuries


Massanutten

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2006, 10:25:30 pm »
   I agree and what a dynamic time in retrospect it must have been.  That Constantine was at odds with the nature of his religion is not surprising given that the Christians were also unsure of their tenants given the number of Councils that were needed to define their basis of being.  I find it interesting that the East gave more to the definition of modern day dogma than the West which, as I think you say, was more amenable to incorporating the pagan rites with the Christian to gain advocates.

Offline Cleisthenes

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2006, 02:46:25 am »
In his discussion of Constantine's un-Christian-like behavior (behavior exhibited by the emperor after his "conversion"), Charles Freeman writes:  "Most remarkable of all, Constantine continued to portray himself on coins and in the statues of himself used at the dedication of Constantinople as a sun god."   



Freeman, Charles. Egypt, Greece and Rome: Civilizations of the Ancient Mediterranean; Second Edition. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2004. 582.

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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2006, 02:24:57 pm »
Not only that, but in his oration 'In Praise of Constantine', Eusebius says that

[God] it is who appoints him this present festival, in that he has made him victorious over every enemy that disturbed his peace: he it is who displays him as an example of true godliness to the human race. And thus our emperor, like the radiant sun, illuminates the most distant subjects of his empire through the presence of the Caesars, as with the far piercing rays of his own brightness. To us who occupy the eastern regions he has given a son worthy of himself; a second and a third respectively to other departments of his empire, to be, as it were, brilliant reflectors of the light which proceeds from himself. Once more, having harnessed, as it were, under the self-same yoke the four most noble Caesars as horses in the imperial chariot, he sits on high and directs their course by the reins of holy harmony and concord; and, himself every where present, and observant of every event, thus traverses every region of the world. Lastly, invested as he is with a semblance of heavenly sovereignty, he directs his gaze above, and frames his earthly government according to the pattern of that Divine original, feeling strength in its conformity to the monarchy of God.

He might just as well name him Constantinus Epiphanes, since his language is that of divine kingship, and he goes so far as to place him in Apollo's chariot, shining like the sun.
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2006, 02:45:42 pm »
Yet didn't Eusebius consider Constantine to be a committed Christian?  There was nothing inconsistent, then, in comparing a Christian ruler to the sun god!
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2006, 05:38:46 pm »
He did, yet he uses this sort of language about him. I agree it's difficult to understand. Worse, he becomes the earthly counterpart of the heavenly Logos, acting in apparently perfect unity with God:

He who is the pre-existent Word, the Preserver of all things, imparts to his disciples the seeds of true wisdom and salvation, and at once enlightens and gives them understanding in the knowledge of his Father's kingdom. Our emperor, his friend, acting as interpreter to the Word of God, aims at recalling the whole human race to the knowledge of God; proclaiming clearly in the ears of all, and declaring with powerful voice the laws of truth and godliness to all who dwell on the earth. Once more, the universal Saviour opens the heavenly gates of his Father's kingdom to those whose course is thitherward from this world. Our emperor, emulous of his Divine example, having purged his earthly dominion from every stain of impious error, invites each holy and pious worshiper within his imperial mansions, earnestly desiring to save with all its crew that mighty vessel of which he is the appointed pilot.

It's a funny sort of Christianity! I think it's basically the myth of divine kingship transplanted into a nominally Christian context.
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vic9128

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2006, 05:46:36 pm »
Robert, it is only a funny sort of Christianity if you try to define it by anything other than the standards of the day (which Constantine was shaping/making up). It is exceedingly strange by our standards, not so strange in Constantine's day.

Offline Cleisthenes

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2006, 11:08:50 am »
This is honestly asked in the spirit of colleagiality.  What do you mean by ". . . the standards of the day (which Constantine was shaping/making up)"?  Do you intend to omit the contributions to the "making up" of those days' "standards" by people other than Constantine, say, someone like Athanasius of Alexandria?  For many reasons (according to the standards of the Roman Catholic Church) Constantine has never earned the title of "saint," and John A. Hardon, S.J., provides this caveat as an apology for including Eusebias among the authors in the "Catholic Lifetime Reading Plan," "Some explanation is necessary for including Eusebius in the Catholic Reading Plan. He was very learned, a prolific writer, and a successful administrator as bishop, but he was also weak in character. Two aspects of this weakness that were especially grave were his unqualified admiration for Emperor Constantine and his uncontrolled desire to please his fellow bishops who would not accept the unqualified teaching of Nicea about the divinity of Jesus Christ."  Therefore, how exactly do you define the standards to which you appeal as a rebuttal to Constantine's via Eusebias' funny sort of Christianity?
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2006, 07:59:27 pm »
It's actually a funny sort of Christianity for the time, especially for a bishop. OK, he was a moderate Arian who was humiliated at the Council of Nicea, when Constantine was supporting the Athanasian faction. So he would have held that Christ was a created being, second only to God, and that 'there was when he was not'. So he'd be clearly subordinated to the Father. But that's a fairly subtle piece of theology. It doesn't explain how it is that Eusebius uses god-language, both pagan and Christian, of Constantine, or suggests that he stands beside God as the third figure in the heavenly hierarchy. 'Once more, the universal Saviour opens the heavenly gates of his Father's kingdom to those whose course is thitherward from this world'? When were they ever closed, as far as the church was concerned?? There are loads of examples there of the sort of language the church has never used of anyone or in any context.

It's pretty clear that we have the first example of the so-called 'state theology' which always uncritically supports whatever governments get up to, but to find it suddenly appearing in such an extreme form without a word of protest from anyone until recent times is really quite amazing.
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