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Author Topic: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe  (Read 33383 times)

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Offline slokind

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2006, 07:14:24 pm »
And Augustus's gesture is the speaking gesture of all angels who come to tell something, from Gabriel's annunciation to the angel appearing to the Maries at the tomb and on through the Middle Ages to the Renaissance: Adlocutio.

I said 'grappling' (which is not 'grabbing' or 'grasping') because it so resembles unpleasant metal devices (cf. also scissors hands).  I was remembering the tools which together with pointed poles are used to manage logs coming downstream to a pond in Oregon.  I wanted to use a word that would make people look and see that it is nothing natural, whether ill drawn or well, whether emphatic in its gesture or not.

The ones the emperors hold look like something you'd use in whaling to make vegetarians blench at the sight.  These are surely highly significant things.  Consider them semiotically!  And, yes, in that right hand of power.  As VirtvsProbi said, they remind one of political art that is NOT NICE at all.

It was Doug Smith I was exchanging e-mails with, and it was about the Emesa equestrian Septimius that has one.  He called them "lobster claws", but I wanted to suggest something harder and crueller.  The term 'grappling hand' has no authority at all, but it worked!
Pat Lawrence

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2006, 08:23:44 pm »
Here it is.  632. IMP MAXIMINVS AVG AD 312 RIC 836 (BrMus), according to Kraay catalogue at back of picture book.  "Maximin is identified with Sol, a rôle which suggests that the intimate association with the Sun-god of Constantine, himself identified with Mars (no. 631) had not yet been developed".  You Constantine guys will know about that better than I do.

Yes - it's an interesting point as far as dating goes.

The Maximinus/Sol coin is part of a special series of 3 issued by Constantine c.313. The three coins, with fixed obverse/reverse pairings, are Constantine (w/ martial bust)/VLPP, Maximinus/Sol and Licinius/Iovi. The series is most recently dated to 313 by Bastien in "L'emission de monnaies de billion de Treves au debut de 313", but really any date between c.310 when Maximinus started to claim the title of Augustus, and 313 when he died, is possible.

Constantine's dedication to Sol (which immediately displaced Mars to 2nd place on his coinage) started sometime c.310, likely mid-310 after a vision of Apollo recorded in a panegyric, and it certainly seems a bit unexpected that he would cede Sol to Daia after that date. It's also notable that when Constantine in 312-313 (after his victory over Maxentius) chose to recognize Maximinus and Licinius by briefly issuing their reverse types from his Aquileia mint, that he did so by issuing Iovi for Licinius and Genio Avgvsti (not Sol) for Daia.

This association of Sol with Daia rather than himself does seem to suggest that an earlier date (early 310) for this series might make more sense. The VLPP reverse arguably makes as much or more sense at that date, when Galerius was dieing and Constantine, Maximinus and Licinius were already asserting themselves.

Ben


Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2006, 08:30:30 pm »
"... the outstretched hand is an almost universal iconographic symbol. In the Mediterranean world, for example, the outstretched right hand of the king has magical power; there must be a close connection with the power of salvation in the right hand of the Roman emperors. This all-powerful hand, or magna manus, as it was called, was connected with emperor and deity alike: Constantine signifies the act of ruling by stretching out his right hand[2], and God, as savior makes the same gesture.

Thanks, virtvsprobi!

I'll have to follow up on your references - this is all good stuff that I was not aware of!

I would still like to attempt to trace the use of this device specifically associated with Sol Invictus to see if it's possible to see precisely where/when he picked up this familiar attribute of power.

Ben

Offline slokind

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2006, 10:06:43 pm »
Has anyone seriously checked for an occasion when the emperor(s) adopted as a badge that 'hand', and the hand of Sol coincidentally was made stylized like the imperial 'hand'?  For there is no doubt that Septimius and Sol, Sol Oriens before Invictus, made an extremely assertive gesture before the extreme and highly stylized, abstracted, form appeared.  The hand gesture, though with all four fingers carefully executed, of the baby radiate Caracalla-Sol on the aureus Leu 93, no. 72, cited above, seems to me meaningfully similar, but it is not an ensign of the gesture such as we see for Maximinus but a human hand making the gesture.
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On Tuesday, which I intend to spend largely in the university library, I'll see whether the Sol article in LIMC is much, if at all, to this point.
The tool-like 'hand' looks like the top of a scepter, replacing an eagle.
Pat Lawrence

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2006, 03:44:20 pm »
An arrangement: it may happen that the gesture  would  be better to discuss in a more general context.   

Offline moonmoth

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2006, 05:28:09 pm »
An arrangement: it may happen that the gesture  would  be better to discuss in a more general context.    

You seem to have more than one gesture in this interesting collection.  Two fingers held out with both hands, with the two smaller fingers and the thumb folded in,  is something quite different from the single raised open hand.

What Sol is shown as doing, and what Pat Lawrence calls the "grappling hand",  can be replicated if you raise your hand, spread the fingers slightly, but keep your thumb and fingertips relaxed.  This is certainly the gesture that Ben gave this link to:

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Even within this one gesture, we must be looking at several things: an ideal of a gesture; various representations on coins of the gesture given by a deity; representations on coins of the gesture being given by a human; and a representation on a coin of an artifact designed to represent or bring to mind the ideal of the gesture.  However, I think you're spreading the net too widely!

Bill

"... A form of twisted symbolical bedsock ... the true purpose of which, as they realised at first glance, would never (alas) be revealed to mankind."

Offline Jochen

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2006, 06:05:20 pm »
But don't forget the raised hand of a priest in blessing pose!

Best regards

Offline slokind

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2006, 06:23:15 pm »
Almost every gesture traditional in the Church (taking all the sacrament-centered ones together) goes back to late antique court gestures, and those go back further and wider.  There is a vast literature concerned with this gestural continuity; by alluding to the gesture of Gabriel somewhere above I meant to evoke the whole subject.  It is true, though I wouldn't vouch for every Romantic reading of it.

I agree with Bill that if we have any hope of nailing down something here and now we need to stick to a specific question, with the confidence that anything ascertained in particular can become helpful in clarifying the general picture.  That is why I singled out the coins where the Sol and the Emperor are just alike, and the Emperor seems to substitue a Sol-arm (I love to imagine it gilded) for his own mortal hand, though the gesture and the hand outline originated in mortal gestures imputed to Sol.  But then it becomes suddenly hardened, formulated.  When talking with Doug Smith, I wondered whether carrying something like that not only was a Signifier but also saved the Emperor from having to keep his own hand in that position for hours on end at some ceremony.  Notice where I use verbs like wonder and imagine!  Also, the verb 'grapple' has done its work; better to call it schematized or emblematic--only those terms allow us to shade off into generalities again.
I thought, while I was trying to model a spearhold, I'd try the Sol gesture--not easy to handle a largish digital camera with one hand, but it had to be my right, so the gesture is...sinister!

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2006, 09:31:42 pm »
I agree with Bill that if we have any hope of nailing down something here and now we need to stick to a specific question, with the confidence that anything ascertained in particular can become helpful in clarifying the general picture.  That is why I singled out the coins where the Sol and the Emperor are just alike

As far as I've found so far, it seems that the gesturing Sol, Serapis & emperor all originate with Septimius Severus & his sons.

Here's a rather posessed looking Septimius mirroring Sol, paired with Serapis, both making the gesture (which despite being on horseback is noticably different than a regular raised hand "adventus" greeting).

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I wonder if there's any connection between Septimius's association of himself with Sol and Serapis, and Julia Domna's Mater Castorvm/Vesta/Avgg reverses as well as Mater Devm?... Is Julia herself being presented as Cybele?

Ben

Offline slokind

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2006, 01:22:22 am »
So, if I may make an imaginative leap all the way back to the head of the thread, does the question become (a) when did Sol and Serapis together get syncretized into the Imperial cultic stew; was it really because of the Emesa sun cult under the Severans? and (b) at what point, did this become hardened into court ceremonial and accoutrement, such as we see for Maximinus?  Is that what you're wondering?  Pat L.
And check out that Alexandrian billon of somebody in Numerianus's middle image of Reply #29.

Offline moonmoth

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2006, 04:07:33 am »
not easy to handle a largish digital camera with one hand, but it had to be my right, so the gesture is...sinister!
Pat - I think you are curling your smaller fingers too much.  My lighter camera allows me to be more .. dextrous ...

If you wish to know what I am wondering, I can express it quite simply: what did this mean?  That this simple question leads into complex and interesting considerations is one of the things that makes it worth asking.  That there are people here who might know the answer, and even if not, certainly know what the question means and how to respond to it effectively, with evidence, makes this an interesting and worthwhile forum.

Here's another approach which requires no evidence and therefore might not be very meaningful, but which is fun.  If I were a sun god, what would I mean by such a gesture?  In my other hand I might be holding a whip, and if I am, I'm probably driving my sun chariot across the sky (even if you don't see it at the moment).  Otherwise I'm holding a globe, which probably means I have dominion over the entire earth.  (Does the globe that gets passed to emperors on coins mean this?  This might be another good question.)  In either case I have almost unlimited power and I am so bright I will burn out your eyes if you look directly at me.  Perhaps I am telling people to bow or to avert their eyes?

Bill
"... A form of twisted symbolical bedsock ... the true purpose of which, as they realised at first glance, would never (alas) be revealed to mankind."

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2006, 09:38:41 am »
So, if I may make an imaginative leap all the way back to the head of the thread, does the question become (a) when did Sol and Serapis together get syncretized into the Imperial cultic stew; was it really because of the Emesa sun cult under the Severans? and (b) at what point, did this become hardened into court ceremonial and accoutrement, such as we see for Maximinus?  Is that what you're wondering?  Pat L.

Well, it does seem that we need to broaden the question a bit (accepting the need to keep it somewhat focused to make any progress) since it seems that the adoption of this gesture by Sol occured at the same time as adoption of it by Serapis and the emperor, although this co-incident timing stills needs some confirmation.

My question about Julia was really just driven by the fact that we seem to have arrived at the reign of Septimius, and that while Septimius seems to be syncretizing Sol & Serapis (although not the first to do so - see Hadrian with Serapis Pantheos below), and associating himself with the duo, there also seems to be a notable pantheistic coinage for Julia, perhaps with some emphasis (the various Mater legends) on the mother god Cybele... Magna manus & magna mater... Just wondering if there's some bigger picture as to what's going on at this time period or specific reign.

To keep a focused track though, it'd be nice to futher pursue the proximate origin (virtusprobi having supplied the longer view) of this gesture as adopted by Sol. Some specific questions (but not necessarily the best) are:

- Was this gesture by Sol (and/or Serapis) adopted under Septimius Severus, or can it be traced earlier?
- What non-numismatic evidence is there for the earliest adoption of this gesture? (statues, mosaics, text references, etc)?
- What different representations of Sol and/or Serapis without the gesture exist immediately prior to Septimius? (e.g. Serapis standing with Cerebus - what else?)
- Can we tie the adoption of this gesture and/or image to the cult(s) of Sol Invictus / Mithraism?

The syncretization of Sol and Serapis is in of itself an interesting topic (maybe part of the move towards widespread monotheism?), but perhaps we should leave that to another time to the extent that the two topics can be separated. Given that Serapis was already a syncretic god, perhaps he (and the population of Egypt) is just being "updated" to keep in sync with the shifting Roman religous beliefs? Certainly as far as Rome itself was concerned, the emphasis (& segue into Christianity) seems to have been based on Sol Invictus, with Serapis playing a much lesser role. Interestingly even on the Festival of Isis coinage (started by Diocletian) we also see radiate gesturing Serapis as well as in his traditional form.

What do we know of the Emesa Sun cult? Is it particularly tied to the Severans? The only factoid I am aware of is the Emesa stone type of Elagabalus (is there any evidence for when this assumed meteorite fell?), who's beliefs seem a bit out of the mainstream of the time (based on Baal rather than Helios and/or Mithras?).

Quote
And check out that Alexandrian billon of somebody in Numerianus's middle image of Reply #29.

I'm not sure who that is. The closest match on Coin Archives is for Trebonius Gallus (after Sept. Severus). Numerianus?

Ben

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2006, 12:42:08 pm »
The second image (of Serapis)  is, indeed, from Trebonianus Gallus 4dr, the first is the obverse of Ivan Alexander, the  last one the gesture of sol from
CONCORDIA AVG  reverse of Probus coin (Rome mint).

Now two (the most famous) gestures of emperors. I am not so sure for the first one. 

Offline slokind

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2006, 07:11:43 pm »
Those are both Ave (and Listen): The Primaporta statue is the commander in chief addressing, perhaps, most particularly the legions, and the Marcus Aurelius is addressing them from horseback, and both are significantly bareheaded: imperatores but not at war in these depictions.
As I thought I spent an afternoon in the library without finding a single work on imperial iconography that broke that impermeable membrane between history and numismatics.  Meaning, the book on Sol Invictus cited coins only for legends and only from Cohen.  But the LIMC article on Sol attacks the complexity of the subject and has no special bias.  The library closed early, so I'll have to go back to finsih with it.  The book on Sol Invictus that I found may be very good on Aurelian's Sol Invictus.  The LIMC on Sarapis is not useless, either.  That Hadrianic Pantheos coin of Hadrian may be over the top, but it sure is a knock-out.  The Sarapis-Sol syncretism is 2-3 century, but the standing nude in chlamys with whip in his raised r. and globe with zodiacal markings is already present in a fresco at Pompeii and almost certainly alludes to Nero's Sol-Colossus.
I need to absorb a lot of basic knowledge before forming harder-edged ideas about the hand that looks like a tool or a claw, which I did not find in any book I found on shelf!  Of course, I could have found it in numismatics books, but I was trying to find whether someone sound has tried putting it all together.  When it comes to those fancy folles, the disciplines' impermeable membrane seems to be perfect!  Cannot be so.  I may find an abbreviated reference in the LIMC article, which does zero in a couple of times on Maximinus Daia.  The Belgian who wrote on Sol Invictus, in my opinion, pays too little attention to Alexandria, but so far as Aurelian's official acts are concerned is certainly sound.
Pat L.

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2006, 02:04:01 pm »
Here is a link to a new COTD subject, where Probus's eagle scepter is exceptionally clear.  Now what if an emperor who subsumed all other gods under Sol put that claw or curved trident Hand of Sol thing instead of Jove's eagle on his scepter?  I was holding back on this notion, but I'll toss it into the arena.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=24887.from0#new
Pat Lawrence
See above, Reply #17.

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2006, 05:10:55 pm »
Pat,
I think that the idea of this Sol-related (or syncretized Sol-Serapis related) gesture deliberately replacing the symbol of Jupiter is quite possible. This pagan monotheistic gesture then giving way to the nimbus and crosses of Christianity. I'm not so sure about the Sol gesture being realized as an adapted sceptre (vs an actual hand gesture), since I'm not convinced that we see this depicted anywhere. It may still be that the unnatural "trident" hand is deliberately meant to look like an eagle (two wings plus head), although it seems we just as often see something looking like a reasonably natural hand.

If this gesture is taken as a symbol of monotheism, with a gesturing Serapis just as symbolic of the changing religious climate as Sol, then perhaps that helps explain (along with the attraction of Isis that it seems we can infer from the inherited iconography) why Constantine and his successors tolerated (or were happy to support?) the Festival of Isis at a time when one would have thought it might have been frowned upon.

Whatever role the gesture played (although perhaps having a theory helps), there's still the question of how/where/when it became associated with Sol Invictus.

Ben

Offline slokind

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2006, 07:28:23 pm »
Yes, I agree with that line of inquiry, as a line of inquiry.  I am not yet half through Gaston H. Halsberghe's The Cult of Sol Invictus, which however limited, deliberately, to keep it within bounds where the author is comfortable, is certainly very useful.  But I was thinking, at the same time as the true style of the Follis is ripe, the time was also ripe for symbolic gestures to become symbolic insignia (just as court dress was becoming more and more like Byzantine and less and less Greco-Roman).  I think it is too Sol-like to be seen as an eagle.  Whether it is an abstracted and designed Hand of Sol would probably depend on how much importance the end of the 3rd century attached to the meaning(s) of that raised Hand when it is Sol or the emperor identifying with Sol.  Is it in the category of the ankh before the noses of the Amarna kings of Egypt?  Not meaning Sol's breath of life, of course, but equally important in the cult?  For Akhenaten, apparently, the Ankh was much more than a hieroglyph; it was hypostatized.  I do not see that the hands of Sol before the Tetrarchy have reached the stage of The Hand, The Ankh, The Cross; I think the culture had not quite lurched into that phase yet.  Halsberghe, by the way, is evidently an Aurelian specialist.  There is an inquiry for a solid book on the Tetrarchy under the Books heading here.  Good luck!  And tell me if you find one.  I do think that Maximinus Daia may be important here, but who knows much about him?  Do you?  Pat L.
P.S.  We call it monotheism, but did they?  And do we skew our inquiry even if only slightly by using that word, if they didn't?  And would it be, rather, syncretism or, from anohter point of view, henotheism?  Wouldn't Stoic Nous come closer to monotheim?

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2006, 12:21:44 pm »
Just to add another interesting coin to this thread .. I found a small coin shop I didn't know existed in my local town, inside a railway station, open 3 mornings a week.  This morning I had a browse through their half dozen trays of mixed quality Roman coins and found this one .. which is now Mine, all Mine!!!   It dates from 260-265 and is from the Cologne mint.

The reverse is SERAPI COMITI AVG, and of course the companionship was echoed for Sol a decade later.  Serapis' robes are not as ornate as Sol's on the coins which show him carrying Serapis' head.  But that may be the Gallic style.  They are certainly not plain.

Apparently the boat is not present on all versions of this - it's not shown on Sear's example, 2005 ref 10992.  This does not look like a galley's prow, but the front of a smaller boat.

But doesn't he have a lovely claw?

Bill
"... A form of twisted symbolical bedsock ... the true purpose of which, as they realised at first glance, would never (alas) be revealed to mankind."

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2006, 12:33:57 pm »
What a nice found! Congrats!

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2006, 04:22:48 pm »
Hi
This bronze (Art Etruscan) of the I° century BC is found in museum Etruscan of Florencia (Italy). 
The name of the statue is: The Haranguer - and the name comes from the gesture of the orator that turns him to the people. 
This is a gesture that is also found on the coins...

ser

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2006, 05:04:23 pm »
An orator or an angel or an emperor, all hold out their arm to address their listerner(s).  Serapis and Sol STRETCH their arms high, pulling their garments, if any, taut.  In their gesture, it is not 'Friends, Romans, and Countrymen, lend me your ears' or 'Ave Maria gratia plena'.  The Arringatore, Aulus Metellus, is interesting in another way, though: his speaking arm is larger than his other arm; this exaggeration for significance is common in Etruscan art (also in Western Medieval art) but rare, very rare, in Greek art.  Pat L.
P.S. I went through CoinArchives today.  Getting the Emperor and Sol with hands made to match is not so common as I imagined.  I did find this argenteus with the emperor holding a 'trident' scepter and his hand showing as well, but, behold, it is Maximinus II again!  And Trier!  P.L.
To which I add the only one I found in Failmezger, no. 249M2, M2 being Max II Daia, also Trier.

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2006, 05:48:07 pm »
  Hello to all!!!
     I've come to this thread late, but have enjoyed it immensely!!   Two thoughts occur to me about the distorted hand.
1.  In a two dimensional art form, how would the hand appear if the intent was to show it extended and coming out of the coin toward the viewer?  It requires a change in visual acuity (perception), but it works.
2.  The hand extended palm outward is a common (even today) demonstration that it does not hold a weapon meaning 'I intend no harm' or 'I come in peace'.  It is an age old symbol that even the Romans used in military salutation.
Just my thoughts.
Best regards, Bob

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2006, 11:37:31 am »
Hi, Bob!

1.  In a two dimensional art form, how would the hand appear if the intent was to show it extended and coming out of the coin toward the viewer?  It requires a change in visual acuity (perception), but it works.

How about this?  It doesn't look much like a gesture of peace - it's out to one side, and still looks very claw-like.

Bill
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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2006, 11:43:53 am »
I'm afraid you have the "grim reaper" on the above coin. You can clearly see the bones of the arm and hand and skull with a crown - and the sickle on the right. Hard to believe all the experts missed it!  ;D

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Re: Sol's gesture and Serapis' robe
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2006, 12:15:00 pm »
   Hi Bill!   Pat L. is the Art Historian and I make no pretense to the same.  I can only say that the technical difficulties for sculpting in miniature and in metal with the tools of the time must have presented great difficulties.  Otherwise when seen in detail you see what prompted silentium's comment.  I wonder if the art form of depth perception was more successful when working in tiles or wall paintings?  By the way, thats a great coin!!!
Best regards, Bob

 

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