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Author Topic: Gordian Securitas  (Read 9937 times)

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Offline Numerianus

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2005, 03:55:58 pm »
As for the sellar, follow the link above.

Offline wolfgang336

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2005, 04:17:26 pm »
Good Afternoon, Pat!

Quote
Kjetil's desire to get to the bottom of the question is admirable. I am sure that our very best gurus (not to embarrass them by naming again) would be the first to agree that accepting on authority is not good scholarship.
 

No doubt, his persistence is a trait rarely observed these days (from my perspective in the world), and should be applauded, however our experts have attempted to explain why they hold the belief that the coin is fraudulent. Still, Kjetil does not accept this, wishing for more "conclusive" evidence. "Conclusive" should be defined if we are to present evidence that can be deemed as such. Style for me, is conclusive. I would assume the only way to satisfy Kjetil would be to examine the coin in hand as he suggests: something both impossible in this situation, and impractical in terms of safeguarding this hobby. If we were required to have every coin in hand to pronounce them forgeries, we would certainly not have the vast repository of information that we do, presented most effectively by Forum Fake's Gallery.

It may be foolhardy to rely completely on "experts", but it is equally so to disregard their guiding hands.

Thanks for making me think, Pat!

Evan

KjetilK

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2005, 07:46:13 pm »
If this coin really is a modern fake I'm sure similar examples will turn up. That in itself is not conclusive evidence, but it will be really helpful to compare dies.

I just want to make the point that we need more than style to condemn a coin. We need to have examined it in person and to campare it to contemporary pieces. The pictures of this coin is not very good. The light distorts details and give the coin a strange color. Impossible or impractical it may be, but I don't see the problem in being a little more careful in condemning a coin. We need more and better research before we pass judgment. Good research will uncover fakes, and in the past we have seen that it have restored previously assumed fakes. If we don't do good research we will probably condemn and suspect more coins than we need to, and that can have it's effects on the hobby too.

I suggest that we have two folders: One for fake coins that are certain (that is coins marked as copies or coins that are cast or known to the community) and one for uncertain coins (that is coins under investigation).  I'm really not worried for this coin until I see pictures of identical coins sold in the market. It's no need to discuss this coin further, I think I have made my point.

Kjetil


Offline ecoli

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2005, 07:51:50 pm »
Modern and not very close.

I've seen at least half a dozen of these.

Barry Murphy

If the above post is true, and B. Murphy is very trusted, this is as conclusive as one can get without the forger standing up and say "I did it".

oerlikon20mm

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2005, 09:59:16 pm »
Dude,
    THREE of the best on ancients have chimed-in on this piece.  It is FAKE..FAKE..FAKE.   Let it go....

Gunner

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2005, 05:25:48 am »
It's perfectly right to question the experts; that's how knowledge advances, but we've been through the evidence on detail in this thread. I think I'm right on saying that nobody can produce an authenticated issue of the time with a portrait in this style, so I think it's time to let it rest.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline Numerianus

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2005, 07:37:44 am »
An arrangement to see the difference. 

KjetilK

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2005, 09:07:38 am »
And here are some examples of coins from the Antioch mint in the years following Gordians reign. The questionable Gordian to the left.

Kjetil

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2005, 09:20:14 am »
Clearly, the skill of Antioch engravers is much lower. But the style  is quite different from the modern one, especially,
it  is visible on the folds of the drapery. 

Offline Pscipio

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2005, 09:22:11 am »
I want to add three points:

a.) You can not compare a Gordian portrait to later rulers.
b.) You can not compare a coin that is supposed to be from Rome to coins struck in Antioch.
c.)  like Numerianus says, there still is a huge stylistic difference between the fake one those later Antioch coins - look at the crown (especially its end to the left), the eyes, the head (Gordian's is round, the others aren't), the chin, the drapery, the hair, and so on.

Lars
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KjetilK

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2005, 11:50:25 am »
First of all I have taken a few portraits of later rulers just to prove that the style will change and that not all coins produced from the same mint is exactly the same as the previous. This has to do with the engraving and production technique of that mint, as well as the talent of the individual engraver.

A late Gordian antoninianus produced at the Antioch mint can have the traits of later issues from that mint. This type of coin rarely turns up in the big fancy aution catalogues, hence the limited numer of examples I had at hand.

Secondly also in ancient times the technique and skill of an engraver varied, resulting in very different portraits. As you can see the lines that makes up the eyes are much more simple than the nice portraits of Gordian we have become so familiar with. One trait they have in common is the strongly engraved eyebrow. The crown is engraved with an extra outline (a 'rim' if you like). The radiant 'spikes' are much better engraved on the Gordian you all question than all the others, the spacing between them is better. The drapery also share some common traits, i.e. the ring that holds it together at the end of the schoulder. I call these ways of engraving 'technique', and those 'techniques' was passed from master to apprentice. The real difference between these coins lies in the way the hair was engraved - the Gordian still have his typical short hair.

Of course there is difference between the Gordian antoninianus and the other portraits. All dies that they needed was produces by hand and that resulted in individual dies with their special charachteristics. But if you look closely at the Gordianus you will see that the engraver is of some skill. So I say again: If this is a modern issue I would really like to see die identical cousins before I pass a judgment on it. This coin is obviously made by a talented engraver, it's unlikely that he only made this coin.

Kjetil

Offline Pscipio

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2005, 12:15:06 pm »
Ok, it seems you don't want to agree on the style, though to me it seems that this discussion is obviously senseless (arguing against professional numismatists like Barry and Curtis, without presenting any argument - and I'm not even talking about reputaton here). But then, please, agree at least on this:

So I say again: If this is a modern issue I would really like to see die identical cousins before I pass a judgment on it.

I've seen at least half a dozen of these.

Barry Murphy

Barry Murphy is probably one of the most skilled numismatists in the world - if you don't want to trust his statement that he saw several fakes of this type, I really would like to know on what you base your mistrust! It's getting a bit ridiculous, otherwise.

Lars
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KjetilK

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2005, 08:02:02 pm »
I really don't want to discuss the personal charachter or the knowledge of forum members. Now some of the members have said that my participation is 'senseless' and 'ridiculous'. Even my personal motive has been put into question. I don't like to discuss persons or their credentials, not my own and not others.

All I have done is to present a dissenting argument about this coin. The coin was early on condemned on three factors: 1) The portrait is different from other Gordian portraits, the eye have been the centre of this argument, 2) the reverse legend ends with 'PP', the proper ending would be 'PERP' and 3) the edge splits may be a sign of a pressed, not struck coin. The coin can have been struck on a cold blank resulting in edge splits, an ancient fouree proves that the 'PP' ending may be ancient and the way the portrait is constructed have similarities to later Antioch issues. I have also made the assumption that it can be an ancient imitation. To me this is enough to doubt on the majority opinion on the coin. Condemnation of fake coins is not done by a vote but by study. And yes, for that purpose I would love to see the half a dozen coins Barry Murphy have seen. These coins are made of a talented engraver, I would really like to see what other coins he have made.

I don't have a problem with you not accepting my arguments and I don't question your motive in doing so. Is there any problems with having a forum member that dissent on one coin?

This coin gives us an opening to explore both the coinage and the production of mints during the rule of Gordian and his imidiate successors. You are all free to disagree, but please give me the same freedom, without questioning my sincerity.

Happy New Year to you all.

Kjetil Kvist


Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2005, 09:09:09 pm »
It does get a bit frustrating when you can't or won't see what everyone else can see perfectly plainly. The worry is, if you're willing to give a 'coin' like this the benefit of the 'doubt', you're likely to end up buying a fair proportion of fakes. None of us wants to see anyone doing that.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline slokind

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2005, 11:52:05 pm »
I don't know how many times in my 71 years, nearly 50 of them spent in teaching at all levels, I have had to say to someone who really and truly felt hurt, "it is not you that is 'senseless', it is not you certainly that is 'ridiculous', but some of the assertions you have made, which in a week or two will no longer seem urgent or personal or important to you, either, do seem excessive.
What you are experiencing is what often happens where the question of fakes is involved.
But if you feel that we are treating you AS IF we had caught you with your pants down (an old American image of embarrassment), you are wrong.  We all have been, one way or another, in the same position.
Your participation is important.  Laying bare all of it can be important.  But go into private and study the coins privately for a while, until you no longer have these keen feelings.
Once I was in a religious order, for 8 years.  There was a rule, that nothing hurtful, ever, was to be reported until at least 24 hours had passed.  It was a good rule.  Nuns can be pretty catty, but in a convent they have to live together, no matter what.
Pat L.
(Now, I'm NOT going to discuss religion; the same would hold true at Boy Scouts camp.)

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2005, 04:33:46 am »
Dear Pat,

I am sorry but  Forum folks are not only nuns and university professors.  There are a lot of tough guys here: militaries, politicians, criminals etc. Also
quite a lot  of teenagers with there maximalism.
There are so  sensitive people that desaccord with their positions they consider  as an insult.  In some societies the innocent claim
"Sorry, I am stupid, I do not understand this" (for himself, beloved!) means that the individual may think  about others: " You are stupid,  you do not understand this"!
A person who make an intervention on the board  should be robust as anybody going to a public activity. 

I appreciated the arguments of Kjetil. He won a point or a half against Curtis Clay providing an example with PP!
There is no need to say that this do not diminish my respect  to Curtis and his erudition.  Again, it would be nice to see a pic of one of a half dozen examples mentioned by Barry. Kjetil's arrangement for Antioch coins is quite spectacular: indeed, the eyes on the coin in question can be clasified as of the Antioch style.

Exploring some fakes from my collection, I could arrive to the end, i.e. to find the originals from which the  casts were made. This eliminated a slim possibility that  the item is an acient forgery.
It   is important  to  understand the logic of  forger  and the source  of his ideas (for me the example with PP solves a part of the problem and : it was
used to fabricate the copy of a presumably very rare legend).
What extra arguments could help Kjetil? It would be useful to see the edge of this coin. 
In principle, he could contact the buyer and discuss the problem in person.  Of course, a pic of another copy will remove his doubts...   


Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2005, 02:32:43 pm »
I don't like to discuss persons or their credentials, not my own and not others.

Not respecting "credentials" perhaps explains why you can go on and on discussing an obvious fake.  Here is something you have somehow missed: credentials = knowledge.  Listening to experts is one way most of us learn.  Apparently you want to learn some much more difficult way and drag all of us into your bizarre method?  Sorry if that is blunt.  Your input to the board is most often interesting.  I enjoy reading most of your posts.  In this thread, however, they are much less so because you have failed to recognize "credentials."   
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2005, 02:37:41 pm »
If this coin really is a modern fake...

There is no IF here.  It is a modern fake and an obvious one. 
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