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Author Topic: Gordian Securitas  (Read 9938 times)

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Offline Numerianus

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Gordian Securitas
« on: December 25, 2005, 05:56:59 pm »
This coin was sold on ebay.fr.  To my feeling there is something strange in the style.
What do you think about?

Offline Rupert

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2005, 06:17:29 pm »
Very strange indeed. Too strange. The only question is whether it is an ancient or a modern fake.

Rupert
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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2005, 06:48:39 pm »
Modern, in my opinion.

Lars
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KjetilK

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2005, 06:54:42 pm »
I'm not sure that this is a fake. It looks like a struck coin, and even the legend is engraved with the correct type of letters. I would go for genuine, if it turns out to be struck.

Kjetil

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2005, 07:03:02 pm »
    I agree with Rupert and Lars:  a modern fake.  The forger gives himself away not only by missing the correct style, but by inventing the impossible rev. legend SECVRITAS P P, instead of the correct SECVRITAS PERPETVA, SECVRIT PERPET, or SECVRIT PERP.  I am pretty sure I have seen this fake before and downloaded it for my files, though unfortunately I didn't add it to my forgery file which I have here beside my computer.
Curtis Clay

KjetilK

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2005, 07:52:18 pm »
Well. The ancient engraver could also made that "mistake". It's not unheard of to shorten the legends, just think about the CONTANTINOPOLI and CONSTANTINOPOLIS variations on the common AE3 of AD330. (Why should a modern engraver make this "mistake"? He would surely try to copy a published example.) It's not unheard of to find a previous unpublished example either. The style really doesn't matter: It could well have been a product of a "eastern mint" or even a just from the hand of a bad engraver.

Until this specimen have been examined in hand or die identical cousins turns up in numbers, I think it's to early to condemn this coin.

Kjetil

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2005, 08:09:22 pm »
PP is not a possible abbreviation for PERPETVA, nor can it be understood as Pater Patriae since no other elements of the emperor's titulature are included.  Sometimes a forger is careless, or he hopes to create a new variant that will sell for more.
Gordian's coinage is extremely well known from innumerable large hoardsHis antoniniani with this obv. legend come from two mints, Rome and Antioch.  The coin in question copies the Roman style, but unsuccessfully, though the lettering is good as you remark.
New mints can still turn up, or be recognized for the first time, but not on the basis of such a doubtful and unconvincing coin as this!
Curtis Clay

KjetilK

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2005, 08:46:44 pm »
This debate have two elements that I want to point to: 1) that even a modern forger have to think about his economy, and 2) that it's a risky sport to jugde coins from pictures. On this coin, that appears to be struck, the style of the portrait is strange, but the letters is correct. Curtis Clay points to the error in the reverse legend, but even ancient engravers made mistakes.

If you want to make a set of dies you need knowledge and training. (The cost of handegraved dies is about $1000 each (I have asked the only norwegian engraver that is trained to engrave dies for medals, and the price is for dies comparable to the size of a roman coin. Maybe some "balkan" engravers would do it for less, but even they have to think about the economy in the project. They don't forge coins for the benefit of the public!)

The most economical way for an forger is to make so called tranferdies from an ancient, genuine coin.  Then he just need to "touch" up on some details to be ready to strike a few coins now and then. Yes, maybe a forger made a more special variation to get more money of it, but why bother. You make money when you forge coins in bulk. And that is what they do. The "replicas" and "copies" that are offered in todays market place is much closer to the average Gordian antoninianus than this one.

I think it's an ancient coin. Either a product of a uncertain official mint or a imitative issue.

To jugde coins from pictures is not so easy and you can only jugde the style of the piece. You have to examine the coin in person, in your hand, to be sure. Only then can you jugde the fabrication method, the metal, the engraving and so on. Yes, some are not convincing based on style, but this coin is quite good. The letters are correctly engraved: That is someting many forgers just don't get right. The portrait is different from the average Gordian, but not the portrait nor the god on the reverse is stranger than what we see on later 3rd century issues. PP is a strange abbrevation, but an ancient engraver could also have made that mistake. I don't think they all passed latin classes with honors. The engraver just ran out of space, and engraved PP instead of PERP. Just a shortcut, not an abbrevation.

Kjetil

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2005, 09:10:10 pm »
     Naturally it is harder and the results are a little less certain, but it is quite possible to judge on authenticity from good images only.
     Two other suspicious features of this coin: the numerous flan cracks which often betray pressed fakes, and the two curious die breaks on the emperor's cheek.
     There would have been room enough for PERP at the end of the legend, if the engraver had simply omitted the large spaces he was allowing between the individual letters.
Curtis Clay

Offline bpmurphy

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2005, 11:19:18 pm »
Modern and not very close.

I've seen at least half a dozen of these.

Barry Murphy

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2005, 05:45:35 am »
The portrait style is completely modern; I wouldn't believe that's ancient.
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Offline Pscipio

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2005, 05:56:30 am »
The style really doesn't matter

The style does matter - in many cases, it is the style that gives it right away. Here it is, above all, the portrait style: look at the unnatural eyes, the strange nose, the ears and the radiate crown. If yo do not want to take the style of a coin into account when you judge its authenticity, you will have a hard time detecting fakes.

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Offline Numerianus

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2005, 07:25:45 am »
The discussion  shows clearly that it is  definitely a modern fake.  It seems that  I can provide a link:

[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Other coins of the seller  were very ordinary  genuine coins.  Probably, this  was a factor why  experienced buyers
made bids for this one. The winning bid (27.50 EUR)  was of gormi (he could be a customer of some members here:
it would be nice to inform  him).

About rentability.  Of course, even in Bulgaria the production and  marketing of struck copies may be  expensive.
Could such copies be sold for tourists as a high quality replicas of  rare ancient coins?  This would explain that
there  exists a number of examples  making this technology rentable.

There is alternative  explanation why  these coins  quite often have fantastic legends. Not only  to sell for the higher
price (in fact,  the rare variant attracts experienced collectors who have more experience to  recognaze  the fake).
Copy makers  consider  this as a legal guaranty, like a signature (instead of R or COPY): it is not a forgery, just
an imitation. 

KjetilK

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2005, 08:00:02 am »
CNG sold a Gordian III "Fourée. Uncertain mint. Securitas reverse with legend SECVRITAS P P" on Triton V lot 2073 (US$170). It's not made from the same set of dies, both the portrait and the god is different. But the legend is the same, and the ending PP. At least there are other Gordians out there from engravers who made the same "mistake".

Kjetil

Offline Pscipio

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2005, 08:25:07 am »
A foureé is an ancient fake, so you can't compare this to an official issue. But can you provide a pic of that coin?

Lars
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Offline Rupert

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2005, 08:33:29 am »
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline Pscipio

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2005, 08:55:40 am »
With this arrangement, I do not want to show that the coins aren't from the same dies (that is obvious - I even doubt that the modern one is struck at all, rather pressed), but the difference in style between an ancient and a modern coin. The modern one is just from a "dead" style, the portrait is completely lifeless; most strikingly visible when you compare the eyes. No ancient die cutter (not even a forger) who managed to cut a legible legend and a recognizable portrait would ever have cut such dead eyes.

Lars
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KjetilK

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2005, 10:51:09 am »
"Dead" and "lifeless" is not a description of the object, it's a description of your own feelings when you see the coin. And it's not even a good description of ancient vs. modern fakes of coins, just look at the nice eyes and portraits that are offered as "copies" of ancient coins today.

The eye is put together of a few lines, quite similar to other mid 3rd century issues. It's not that unfamiliar from province issues either.

Is the coin pressed or struck? Well, to determine that we will need very good close up photos of the coin. These pictures is made by a scanner and is not good enough. Flan cracks doesn't betray pressed coins, those cracks turn up in nearly every series of coins. That can well be a result of striking cold flans, not heated ones.

There was two moments in determinig that this coin was a modern fake: The legend and the portrait. The legend is known from an ancient fouree and the portrait is not typical of Gordian, but can well be the work of an ancient die cutter. The eyes of other 3rd century official and provincial issues was pretty bad work to.

Without seeing the coin, without good quality pictures I think it's not safe to condemn this coin. And it's no rush either, it's a 50 dollar coin. I would be much more sure if cousins of it (coins made from the same set of dies) turns up in numbers. If it does, the case is closed and the coin can safely be condemned.

Kjetil

Offline Pscipio

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2005, 11:10:01 am »
"Dead" and "lifeless" is not a description of the object, it's a description of your own feelings when you see the coin.

The eye is put together of a few lines, quite similar to other mid 3rd century issues. It's not that unfamiliar from province issues either.

the portrait is not typical of Gordian, but can well be the work of an ancient die cutter.

This is opinion vs. opinion.

Concerning the "description of my own feelings when I see the coin", I agree - but that is how style usually matters. You do the same: you think that the portrait could be ancient from style - I dont, so again: opinion vs. opinion. I'm sorry, but I still think I can condemn this coin from this picture, and I condemn it because of its style. As a last note, I want to add that, even assuming I myself would not see anything wrong on that coin, I would immediately accept the judgement of experts like Curtis and Barry. I would never feel secure and knowledgeable enough to argue against them in such a case. Those are just my own feelings, though.

Lars

PS: judging the style of a coin is a question of experience. I have some, but many FORVM members have more than I - Barry and Curtis, for example.
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Offline Numerianus

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2005, 12:41:17 pm »
By the way, Burry wrote: "I've seen at least half a dozen of these."   So the cousins do exist.
Of course, it would be better to see pics and that is why all apperances should be documented.

I would say that, besides  portrait style, the foldings of the drapery are also  far  from the authenticity.

By the way, the unlisted Gordianus, known only as a fourree,  may give  a motivation for forgers. 

Offline slokind

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2005, 01:01:16 pm »
We have run into one of the oldest and most pernicious misapplications of the word 'subjective' and a few other mistakes.  First, Lars is right.  This is just a confirming addendum.
Style is difficult to talk about not because it is illusory (though the inexperienced can fool themselves with it) but because humanity has not developed verbal language to handle it.  It is objective traits of the thing in question that well trained and experienced persons may summarize as 'lifeless' (or as the case may be).  Similar terms are used for less than great poetry or essays, which are not quite so difficult to encapsulate verbally, being themselves verbal.  The style of a performance of, say, a Beethoven quartet, once beyond the technical points, is similarly difficult.  Like the visual, the auditory is not very susceptible to verbal discussion.  Yet the effect of a great quartet ensemble playing for an audience that is congenial is a great deal more, and other, than 'how they feel about it'.  In the visual realm, it is characteristics of the object that have their effect in subjects.  In these subjects, what KjetilK called 'subjective' is rightly called 'personal'.  It is true that no two persons have exactly the same feelings about things--or, if they have, it is very difficult to express verbally the personal response to a visual object.  The point is, Curtis and Barry, since they were just named, might have their own personal aesthetic responses to a given object, but also agree as to whether it is ancient style, or not, or, for example, whether it is typical or not.
Also, KjetilK spoke of '3rd century style'!  WHICH 3rd century style?  Which decade, which reign, even which mint?  There is no such thing as 3rd-century style.  There are, however, very definite traits and preferences in the coinage for Gordian III (even for all the Gordiani), particularly for the Rome mint.
Finally, Gordian III's facial and cranial bone structure was distinctive, and the engravers were well practiced in it; they understood it very well.  There is a range of eye forms in Gordian's Rome coinage, but it is quite uncommonly narrow.
'Dead' and 'lifeless' are risky epithets (just as 'vibrant'--ugh--is), but none of them are 'descriptions' at all.  They are summary epithets conventionaly used to summarize and evoke: to encourage you to look again.  
By the way, one reason the head of Gordian on this antoninianus looks 'lifeless' is that features are more or less 'rubber-stamped' onto a stock head and do not relate to one another as in living anatomy.
Patricia Lawrence

Offline Pscipio

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2005, 01:39:58 pm »
Thank you for putting my thoughts into words and for going beyond them; I lack the experience to do the same.

Lars
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KjetilK

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2005, 02:37:21 pm »
Thank you Patricia Lawrence for your posting.

Yes, Lawrence have a point about the portrait. I don't think it's to different from issues of Antiochia in the 250s. The eyes on many Valerianus, Trebonianus Gallus and Valballathus is also made up of a strong eyebrow and a eyeball between to narrow lines. Does every contemporary portrait of Gordian really have to be of the same quality? Ancient coins was faked in ancient times, as you are well aware of. And every engraver was not equally talented.

This coin is an oddity and should be considered one as long as we are unable to find conclusive evidence that it's a fake. To do that I would still like to have better pictures or examine the coin in person, and to have photos of die identical relatives. I just want more evidence before this coin is branded fake.

Kjetil

Offline wolfgang336

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2005, 03:32:01 pm »
Numerianus, who sold this coin? This may well help us put an end to this discussion.

Kjetilk, many of us are wondering why you continue to argue this point. Curtis and Barry are two of the most respected numismatists in the world. They have both said that there is no doubt that this coin is a forgery. On the other hand, you have no credentials in ancient coins whatsoever as far as I can ascertain. I hate to use the ad hominem, but this is a bit ridiculous.

Evan

Offline slokind

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2005, 03:52:33 pm »
Now to Kjetil's defense!  Sorting out these categories, when no one teaches the Aristotelian Organon now, nor anything like it, and even in nations that used to teach Latin and Greek before university very few do now (not that I have any problem with what is emphasized instead, though we may have gone too far), is not easy, not child's play. 
Kjetil's desire to get to the bottom of the question is admirable.  I am sure that our very best gurus (not to embarrass them by naming again) would be the first to agree that accepting on authority is not good scholarship.  In principle, it doesn't matter who sold it, either (though of course we look extra carefully at some sellers' offerings).  I don't know whether Kjetil has 'credentials' or not, but I do know that there are lots of persons, in all disciplines, who have acquired credentials--and it can be a real problem, I assure you (not on my credentials, but because, given my age, I've been trying to cope with this problem in students' papers and theses for a long time).  Credentials are what the academic world calls celebrity; the authority of a scholar, like the authority of a good coin itself, is intrinsic.
Pat L.

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2005, 03:55:58 pm »

Offline wolfgang336

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2005, 04:17:26 pm »

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2005, 07:46:13 pm »

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2005, 07:51:50 pm »

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2005, 09:59:16 pm »

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2005, 05:25:48 am »
Robert Brenchley

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Offline Numerianus

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2005, 07:37:44 am »

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2005, 09:07:38 am »

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2005, 09:20:14 am »

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2005, 09:22:11 am »
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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2005, 11:50:25 am »

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2005, 12:15:06 pm »
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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2005, 08:02:02 pm »

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2005, 09:09:09 pm »
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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2005, 11:52:05 pm »

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2005, 04:33:46 am »

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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2005, 02:32:43 pm »
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Re: Gordian Securitas
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2005, 02:37:41 pm »
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