Round 8 - SilentRuin

[Bill Perry]

Well I've got my coins from FORVM along with my handbook of Roman Imperial coins - so here's hoping these turn out to be in the book or in wildwinds or I'm going to be in trouble! Also take it easy on me as I'm just starting out  Here is the first side of the coins

[Bill Perry]

This is other side of the coins

[Bill Perry]

I'll post coins as they are ready - this first one took only some light toothbrush brushing with dishwashing liquid, a two day soak in distilled water, some toothpicking to highlight the letters and figures.

Attribution Coin 1

Physical Attributes
  1.30g
 15.24mm
180 degree alignment
very dark green - even patina over whole coin - probably copper sulfate as it does not look to be covering anything else (copper carbonate would probably be over another layer of patina and be more grainy)

Obverse Legend
CONSTANT - IVSPFAV(bottom half of G - this is only part of coin that is not completely round - looks like small snip missing from this point to base of bust)

Obverse Device
bust facing right, front, either one big strap on his head or two together - I see at least one flower right before the two tassles drop off his head, cuirass (thats a guess as it looks like some kind of miltary clothing as opposed to robes), draped (some kind of cape looks like)

Reverse Legend
VICTORIAEDDAVGGQNN
Exergue- AQP

Reverse Device
two victories standing facing eachother - between the two opposing legs the coin is kind of featureless or rubbed flat so each victory has a very faint outline of their legs - can tell some other detail "was" there but its so faint I just can't guess (yes I looked up what two guys facing eachother most looked like - we are pretending I'm following basic attribution though intead of leaping into the book at the first sign of recognizable text )

Conclusion

After desperately looking for a dot near the mint mark or any type of letter or figure between the victories in the center (albiet that part is almost rubbed flat it appears) I've come to the conclusion there is no letter, wreath, palm or anything there. So its going to be common old RIC VII Aquileia 76.

Official Attribution of Coin 1

CONSTANTIUS II (337-361 A.D.)
AE4 - 15.26mm, 1.30g, die alignment 180 degrees, struck at Aquileia by first officina between 341-348 A.D (Van Meter P. 15); obv- CONSTANT-IVSPFAV[G] bust, right front, laurel and diadem with rosettes, draped, cuirassed; rev- VICTORIAEDDAVGGQNN two victories standing facing eachother, with AQP in exergue. RIC VII Aquileia 76 (Helvitica's RIC lists - FORVM link), Van Meter P. 299. Even dark green patina across both sides of coin, reverse has small area between facing victories near legs smoothed indistinct.

[seth]

the type is issued 347-348 as i recall. and in this period there were only 2 augusti : constans and constantius jr. constantine jr died in 340.

[Bill Perry]

I see you are correct there were only two Augusti at this time - Constantine II attacked in 340 so would have been gone by the time this coin was minted. I'm still new at this stuff and not good at the history - I had just remembered all 3 sons were augusti and that he attacked at some point I thought was later. Thanks for the teaching lesson

Also, how do you get dates on the time the coins were minted? I only have access to the web and Van Meter's book which had the only reference range for these type of coins I could find - 341-348 A.D. - where did you narrow it down to just one year? Also still learning how to look up stuff.

[Bill Perry]

Mostly a slug with dirt highlights for obverse showing Jugate busts - the rest of this coin is anyones guess. Basically a day extra in distilled water with extra brushing and scraping (toothpick first then desperate with my metal pick) on reverse in desperate attempt to see anything. 

Attribution Coin 2

Physical Attributes
 3.19g
16.26mm
90 degree die alignment (tilting coin to right 90 degrees) (this is based on a serious stretch of imagination as the picture I show of the reverse is a 0 degree flip and if I use my imagination and think "Double-cornucopiae" it might match the series of dust covered divits in the black patina - as I said a stretch)
black patina with dirt colored highlights - even patina over whole coin - but the dirt highlights are about all you can tell from either side of this coin. Its been cut up around the edges so is not very round.

Obverse Legend
None that I can see.

Obverse Device
Jugate busts facing right, the right bust has cuirass and some kind of head gear with eye that looks Nabataean in cut. The left has a lot of hair on top and left.  Both have distinct eye/nose/chin/heads.

Reverse Legend
None that I can see.

Reverse Device
There is nothing much to see, just 6-7 dirt filled highlights. I'm going to use my vast imagination and try to fit a "Double-cornucopiae" in at a 90 degree tilt to right where the smaller 2 dirt filled spots (tilted) along the top and the big spot on right is edge of right cornucopiae and the big spot on upper left with wierd shape in bottom of it is cornucopiae on left. This of course is not possible to see as I'm forcing it to be in my mind what I want it to be. So I see what I want

Conclusion

I've looked everywhere for a match to the Jugate busts I can see and the style of eye on the right bust. I'm almost positive its a Arabian Nabataea coin but I'm not positive on which one matches exactly. Based on the fact its 16.26mm and 3.19g and with the edges of the coin obviously having been trimmed I'm going to assume its a 17mm coin and the closest match with eye, relative positions of eyes, noses and chins - and with the right guy have a few lines showing of a cuirass I'm going to go with the Meshorer 114.1 Nabataea coin.

Official Attribution of Coin 2

Nabataean Kingdom, Aretas IV (9 BC - AD 40)
AE17 - 16.26mm, 3.19g; obv- Jugate busts of Aretas IV and Queen Shaqilath, right; rev- Double-cornucopiae (none really visible this is a stretch based on dirt blots). Meshorer 114.1 Nabataean Kingdom (wildwinds and FORVM topic 21503.0). Even black patina across both sides of coin, obverse has plainly visible jugate busts with some eye/nose/chin detail on each, reverse cannot be made out at all containing only divits contrasted with dirt.

[Bill Perry]

This silvered Antoninianus is my most beautiful coin yet - not for detail - but because it was my first silvered coin ever and the rainbow colors it shows on both sides of the coin are very cool - the picture does not do it justice. Stayed in distilled water till I could be sure it was completely silvered (no underlying metal showing) then put in lemon juice (literally I had to squeeze a lemon - the seeds are good to they prop it up in the cup ) and would then do tooth brushing with dishwashing liquid, scrape off residue with metal pick, repeat. Even though the coin is pretty rough, the rainbow colors make it my favorite

Attribution Coin 3

Physical Attributes
 3.00g
21.34mm
180 degree alignment
rainbow colored over both sides of the coin (I assume this is what is meant by silver toning), coin is rough on both sides but silvering is complete on both sides of the coin. Picture does not do the coloring justice (unfortunately it does do the rough condition justice). Coin is longer vertically (relative to obverse bust) than wide - appears this was made this way.

Obverse Legend
-RIAN- (text is VERY hard to make out - I kept looking and looking and finally after going crazy between RIC 218 and RIC 294j - Valerian I and his son Gallienus - so similar when you DON'T have good Obverse legend - in the end these letters were the one's I could make out after staring for a long time and pretty much were the deciding factor on the coin also)

Obverse Device
bust facing right, front, radiate, draped - due to roughness of coin features could be Valerian I or his son Gallienus - but my first impression was Valerian I.

Reverse Legend
(bottom of P)(bottom of A)C(bottom of A)TORI-(rest too rough to tell)

Reverse Device
Jupiter seated holding septre and patera - rest is too rough to tell.

Conclusion

A beautifully toned coin - rainbow colors everywhere over it. Spend a really long time looking at obverse trying to see if this was Valerian I (RIC 218) or his son Gallienus (RIC 294j) - they should never have made coins where the legends and devices are so similar! It would have been easy if any of the obverse legend was clear but the only part semi clear was of course the part where they share similar letters (sigh). In the end though I'm confident that the legend on the Obverse has RIAN over upper right of bust. And it does look more like bust of Valerian I. So I'm attributing it to Valerian I RIC 218.

Official Attribution of Coin 3

VALERIAN I (253-260 A.D.)
AR Antoninianus - 21.34mm, 3.00g, die alignment 180 degrees; obv- [IMP C P LIC VALE]RIAN[VS AVG], radiate, draped bust right; rev- [PA]C[A]TORI [ORBIS], Jupiter seated left holding sceptre & patera, eagle at foot. Moesia (Viminacium) mint, AD 254-255, Cohen 145. RIC 218 (Wildwinds). Beautifully toned coin with rainbow colors on both sides, but very rough with partial text difficult to make out on both sides, completely silvered on both sides.

[Bill Perry]

Distilled water soak for a few weeks, daily toothbrushing, toothpicking, finally a few days in olive oil. I'm afraid to clean it any more as all the major crud is off - leaving mixed deep green, light green patina with a few rust colored spots I'm not going to touch as I can't seem to reach the green patina under them and think I'm actually into crystalized part of coin.

Attribution Coin 4

Physical Attributes
  3.40g
 21.84mm
  0 degree alignment
Mixed deep green, light green patina with a few rust colored spots on both sides of the coin that seem to go to base metal. Coin is wider relative to bust than high - looks like it was struck that way.

Obverse Legend
(rough rusty but legible IMPC)CLA(faint V)(fainter D)- rest can't read at all.

Obverse Device
bust facing right, front, curiassed, draped, radiate

Reverse Legend
(faint V left of victory feet)(can't read anything)(faint R over victory head)IAA(rust covered V)G
K (below left arm)
I (right of right leg)

Reverse Device
victory standing left with wreath (partial) in left hand and bunch of plants(?) in right hand.

Conclusion

After the longest time (pre cleaning) thinking this was RIC 14f I finally discovered the actual text on the obverse and could not resolve the AAVG portion with AEQVITA[SAVG]. This made me revist the wildwinds page and find RIC 104F being a much better match. More scrutinizing of the coin reverse under a very strong light and magnifying glass resolved a few more letters which all matched VICTORIAAVG - also the obverse bust had a curias with several horizontal lines which matched one of the pictures in RIC 104f. Therefore - I'm saying its RIC 104f. The mint mark is K - according to FORVM resources I can choose between Carthage or Cyzicus. As this same reference says Carthage was not open at the time of Gothicus and he has other coins minted at Cyzicus I'm going with minted in Cyzicus. I'm interpreting the "I" as the minting official roman numeral I. As my references are limited to Van Meter and the web - that is my best guess.

Official Attribution of Coin 4

Claudius II, Gothicus (268-270 A.D.)
AE Antoninianus - 21.84mm, 3.40g, die alignment 0 degrees, struck in Cyzicus by first officina (Van Meter and FORVM resources); obv- IMPCCLAVD[IVS AVG], radiate cuirassed bust right; rev- V[ICTO]RIAAVG, Victory standing left, holding wreath & palm, with K below left arm, I to right of right leg. RIC 104f (wildwinds). Mixed deep green, light green patina with a few rust colored spots on both sides of the coin that seem to go to base metal. Text on both sides of the coin is mostly obscured, faint or not visible.

[Bill Perry]

Few weeks in olive oil, daily toothbrush and toothpick, final metal pick and toothbrush. Afraid to clean this one any more as some of the black spots that fell off left rust. For sure I picked around the letters as much as I could - its a really wierd obverse where the right of the face is mangled around the mouth and all the letters on that side of the coin only have their "tops" of the letters showing.

Attribution Coin 5

Physical Attributes
  4.80g
 21.34mm
  0 degree alignment
dark green patina over both sides of coin - a few patches of dark black which when removed seem to leave rust base metal. Rust spots - one is in hairline of bust - another couple spots along letters of left - one left of nose. Black patches between mouth of bust and eye - also above bust and to right of rust spot in hairline. Black patches also on reverse in middle of soldier standing and in middle of cone headed guy getting the spear.

Obverse Legend
(DN under magnifier)CON(ST under magnifier)(2 more letters but hopeless)(head of bust)(The rest are oddly enough only the top 1/2 to 3/4 of the letters - TIVSPFAVG)Unless of course your sane - then you'd see that the inscription really has -VSNOBCAES instead of my original attribution of -TIVSPFAVG - tried to hard to fit it into constantius II

Obverse Device
Tallish bust facing right, curiassed, draped - very mangled on detail - above the eye and below the throat are decent but rest is indistinct.

Reverse Legend
FELTEMPRE* - PARATIO (all letters are clear under magnifier - and I'm pretty sure there is a dot next to the E before the text is divided by soldiers head -either that its a disjoined part of his spear)
Exergue - ?TS?

Reverse Device
Clear soldier facing left/front on left leg with oval shield in left hand right of waist, spear in right hand with clear shaft and point with indistinct person below spear point. Its a garbled mess left of left leg of soldier to the spear point. I can see maybe elf hatted guy and one arm up by spear and his leg below mess, but its a mess all in there and I cannot seperate detail and have cleaned all I dare. There is some sort of symbol to left of spear but I cannot resolve it no matter how much i scratch at it - its maybe a lightning bolt or sidewise S but its really up for grabs. I can only tell what its not. The exergue has letters but I can only make out a ?TS? and I'm really unsure if the ? are even letters. I could not swear to the TS either.

Conclusion
All together a very frustrating coin as it seemed it was going to resolve out nicely but then as the dirt cleared there was still nothing to resolve. Short of outright stripping the patina I'm not thinking I'm going to find anythine else in terms of detail. In the end as there is only about a million fel temps with guys being speared I'm stuck with attributing based pretty much on the picture alone. So based on the fact that I'm looking for a bust which seems more elongated than normal, and a disticnt helmet type and spear with the soldier being pretty clear stabbing a potentially elf hatted guy, a strange symbol on left, a dot after the E in FELTEMPRE*  - I'm going to take an outright guess after comparing pictures till my eyes blurred of..... RIC VIII 189,D. The elongated bust dividing the name, the pointy elf like hat, dot after the E, letter FE in FEL near the pointy hat, the greek D, all seemed to match this coin.Unless of course you revisit and do a wildwinds search of FELTEMP and find there was more than constantius II to fit the text into - I should have stuck to going with what I saw rather than forcing it to be what I wanted to fit - the NOBCAES clear as day makes it more likely to be Constantius Gallus, Thessalonica RIC 186 - this also nicely matches what I could make out in exergue.



Official Attribution of Coin 5

CONSTANTIUS II (337-361 A.D.)
AE3 - 21.34mm, 4.80g, die alignment 0 degrees. obv- DNCONST[AN]-[TIVS]P[F]AV[G], pearl-diademed, draped, & cuirassed bust right; rev- [F]ELTEMPRE*-PARATI

• , soldier spearing fallen horseman, horseman wearing pointed cap & kneeling on one knee with one hand up in supplication, D left, TS in ex. Thessalonica RIC VIII 189,D (WildWinds). Dark green patina with some rust areas and black areas. Overall an obvious FEL TEMP but is so blurred in some of the details its unclear on the exact attribution.
  Except its not due to my blunder - but I don't believe i should get to reattribute it after I claim I'm done so here is the attribution it probably should have been :
  
  Constantius Gallus, Thessalonica RIC 186
   Constantius Gallus AE3 20mm. DN CONSTANTI-VS NOB CAES, bare-headed, draped & cuirassed bust right / FEL TEMP RE-PARATIO, soldier spearing fallen horseman who is reaching backwards, ·S· to left, TSª in ex. 
  

[Bill Perry]

And now an hour or so later I still am not satisfied with coin 5 and find I've done it all wrong - trying to fit it into Constantius II - I now find via a search of Wildwinds it could be also

Constantius Gallus AE3 20mm. DN CONSTANTI-VS NOB CAES, bare-headed, draped & cuirassed bust right / FEL TEMP RE-PARATIO, soldier spearing fallen horseman who is reaching backwards, ·S· to left, TSª in ex.



Which it is (sigh). Rather than try to modify my entire Attribution I'm just going to leave it wrong - as it was what I went with. The changes would have been -

Obverse Legend
(DN under magnifier)CON(ST under magnifier)(2 more letters but hopeless)(head of bust)(VS is blurred)NOBCAES(was clear as day - not 1/2 or 3/4 missing)

Conclusion
Obviously with the NOBCAES it would have been


COIN 5

Constantius Gallus, Thessalonica RIC 186
 Constantius Gallus AE3 20mm. DN CONSTANTI-VS NOB CAES, bare-headed, draped & cuirassed bust right / FEL TEMP RE-PARATIO, soldier spearing fallen horseman who is reaching backwards, ·S· to left, TSª in ex. 


In any case - a classic case of looking at a particular emporer to the exculsion of all else. Live and learn.

In any case I'll modify the original in red so its not misleading to anyone searching FORVM for "good attribution" which mine was not.

[areich]

I don't think it's a problem to change your attribution, since you had no help.

[Bill Perry]

Official Attribution of Coin 1

CONSTANTIUS II (337-361 A.D.)
AE4 - 15.26mm, 1.30g, die alignment 180 degrees, struck at Aquileia by first officina between 341-348 A.D (Van Meter P. 15); obv- CONSTANT-IVSPFAV[G] bust, right front, laurel and diadem with rosettes, draped, cuirassed; rev- VICTORIAEDDAVGGQNN two victories standing facing eachother, with AQP in exergue. RIC VII Aquileia 76 (Helvitica's RIC lists - FORVM link), Van Meter P. 299. Even dark green patina across both sides of coin, reverse has small area between facing victories near legs smoothed indistinct.


Official Attribution of Coin 2

Nabataean Kingdom, Aretas IV (9 BC - AD 40)
AE17 - 16.26mm, 3.19g; obv- Jugate busts of Aretas IV and Queen Shaqilath, right; rev- Double-cornucopiae (none really visible this is a stretch based on dirt blots). Meshorer 114.1 Nabataean Kingdom (wildwinds and FORVM topic 21503.0). Even black patina across both sides of coin, obverse has plainly visible jugate busts with some eye/nose/chin detail on each, reverse cannot be made out at all containing only divits contrasted with dirt.


Official Attribution of Coin 3

VALERIAN I (253-260 A.D.)
AR Antoninianus - 21.34mm, 3.00g, die alignment 180 degrees; obv- [IMP C P LIC VALE]RIAN[VS AVG], radiate, draped bust right; rev- [PA]C[A]TORI [ORBIS], Jupiter seated left holding sceptre & patera, eagle at foot. Moesia (Viminacium) mint, AD 254-255, Cohen 145. RIC 218 (Wildwinds). Beautifully toned coin with rainbow colors on both sides, but very rough with partial text difficult to make out on both sides, completely silvered on both sides.


Official Attribution of Coin 4

Claudius II, Gothicus (268-270 A.D.)
AE Antoninianus - 21.84mm, 3.40g, die alignment 0 degrees, struck in Cyzicus by first officina (Van Meter and FORVM resources); obv- IMPCCLAVD[IVS AVG], radiate cuirassed bust right; rev- V[ICTO]RIAAVG, Victory standing left, holding wreath & palm, with K below left arm, I to right of right leg. RIC 104f (wildwinds). Mixed deep green, light green patina with a few rust colored spots on both sides of the coin that seem to go to base metal. Text on both sides of the coin is mostly obscured, faint or not visible.


Official Attribution of Coin 5

Constantius Gallus (Caesar, 351-354 A.D.)
AE3 - 21.34mm, 4.80g, die alignment 0 degrees. obv- DNCONST[AN]-[VS]NOBCAES, bare-headed, draped & cuirassed bust right; rev-  [F]ELTEMPRE-PARATIO, soldier spearing fallen horseman who is reaching backwards, ·S· to left, TSA in ex. Thessalonica RIC 186 (Wildwinds) Dark green patina with some rust areas and black areas. Overall an obvious FEL TEMP but is so blurred in some of the details its unclear on the exact attribution.

[Bill Perry]

Congrats to the winners! Can someone please verify if I got any of these correct? Thanx!