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Author Topic: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars  (Read 12520 times)

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Massanutten

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Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« on: November 01, 2005, 10:06:25 am »
   Just received this interesting denarius of Hadrian (Rome, RIC 202/Sear 3485) in the mail. I am curious if anyone knows or has a thought to the meaning of the seven stars.  Some idle thoughts of my own:
1. The seven hills of Rome.
2. Roman understanding of the number of solar planets (??? pure conjecture???)
3. Lucky number (Don't know if the Romans thought it so).
  Anyway your thoughts are of course appreciated, as always.
Best regards, Bob

Offline Gert

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2005, 11:45:09 am »
I thought the stars represented the constelation of the Bear (Ursa Maior). As for your 'pure conjecture', I don't think that's the cas": the known planets to the Romans were 5 in number: Venus, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter and Saturn. With the sun, there should be only 6 stars together with the moon. I don't think the seventh star in the coin reverse can be interpreted as the earth.
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Offline slokind

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2005, 12:00:21 pm »
Yes, and see Sear 2000 no. 321, where the moneyer's name, TRIO (genitive case trionis), written within the crescent, directly alludes to Triones (plural form), the seven stars that make the Wain (Wagon, Bear = Ursa Maior), and the seven stars SEPTEM/N surround it.  The obverse of this denarius is a head of Sol.  That is not to be certain what Hadrian's coin means by the Seven.  I have heard that antiquity did know seven visible planets.  In the case of Lucretius Trio's denarius, the prevalent fondness for literate and learned word play makes the stellar reference to the easiest to identify of all constellations, and the one that points to the Pole star, pretty convincing: Septemrio, genit. -ionis, also names both the Wain and the NorthPat L.

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2005, 04:51:17 pm »
Hi!

I don't know the correct interpretation of these seven stars. But I want to add another, different opinion. I think these seven stars are the so-called Seven Sisters, the Pleiades. In German the 'Siebengestirn' are always the Pleiades. The number Seven is connected to the Pleiades not Ursa maior.

1. The depicted shape doesn't match the shape of Ursa maior, but of the Pleiades. The seven stars in the same constellation are depicted too on the famous newly found Disk of Nebra. The scientists immediately call them the Pleiades, not Ursa maior.

2. The Pleiades are playing a central role in ancient times for an agrarian structered culture. When the Pleiades start rising up the night sky it was time for sowings. Fourty days they stand on the sky. When they were declining it was time for harvest. This was said already by Hesiod 8.-7.century BC. Nothing of equal importance is known for Ursa maior.

3. Ok, Ursa maior is seen in the direction to the North Pole of the Northern Hemisphere, but it is really the constellation of Ursa minor which contains Polaris, the star of the sky's North Pole you can use for navigation. But then I think in ancient times the sailors avoid to sail across the open sea but navigate mostly by landmarks.

4. And remember one of the most beautiful odes of Sappho (book 5, no.49):
    Dedyke men a selanna
    kai Pleiades, mesai de
    nyktes, para d'erchet ora;
    ego de mona kateudo.
Nothing is known like that for Ursa maior.

I have added a part of the Disk of Nebra showing the so-called Pleiades and a pic of the night sky by a telescope showing the Pleiades too.

Best regards

Offline slokind

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2005, 06:15:49 pm »
But Vergil called the constellations that Americans call the Dippers (Wains, Wagons, Bears), with seven stars apiece Triones, and the Pleiades, nicely visible here just now, are not markers of the North.  Afraid I don't know any more.  Pat L.

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2005, 06:52:29 pm »
   Strack, noting that the same type is labeled SAECVLI FELICITAS, "The Happiness of the Age", on Eastern denarii of Septimius Severus, interprets Hadrian's type as indicating the return of the seven movable heavenly bodies to their original positions, signaling the beginning of a new golden age.
    He cites
    (1) Festus: "The mathematicians call it the Great Year when the seven wandering stars complete their individual courses and return to harmony with each other", and
    (2) Servius on Vergil's Eclogues:  "At the completion of the Great Year all of the stars return to their places and begin the next cycle of identical movements.  If the movements of the stars are repeated, it follows that everything that happened will recur again, since it is obvious that everything is determined by the motions of the stars.  For this reason Vergil says that the Golden Age will return and everything that happened before will be repeated."
    On this interpretation, we have to assume that the moon is depicted twice in the type:  it is represented not only by the crescent, but also by one of the seven stars above the crescent, since it is one of the seven wandering heavenly bodies, but is also by far the most prominent of them at night, and the only one that waxes and wanes.
Curtis Clay

Massanutten

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2005, 08:34:18 pm »
  An evening of Googling to follow up on the excellant comments of Pat and Jochen did not come up with anything useful (my fault, no doubt), but did come to the nagging conclusion that constallations are likely represented on coins by their associated image (eagle, etc). 
  Curtis' wonderful comments, of course, returned my attention to Gert's comment that the Romans were aware of five planets (sans Earth!).  I assume that their 'original position' means that they were alligned in a linear geometry. The two remaining travelers would be the moon and the sun.  Because this so compelling a conclusion as a portent for a 'new age', could anyone comment on what would be interpreted as the the original position for the moon and the sun?
Bob

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2005, 11:44:08 pm »
Can't help with actual astronomy, I'm afraid.  Let me just add, what I hinted at, that I only hold to the septemtriones interpretation for the Lucretius Trio denarius.  I don't think it at all unlikely that the astrological (saeculi felicitas, etc.) emphasis prevailed in the 2nd and 3rd centuries and later.  Though no age is quite free of astrology, from Hadrian onwards it grows like bronze disease.  You get Seasons and Saeculi all over the place.  Another thing, though, I'd like to know is the meaning of the Severan ones with three stars.  I could suppose a crescent with a single star could be just lucky, but three like seven ought to have a specific meaning (even if that might change from one generation to the next).  I remain a little troubled by the necessity of counting the moon and counting it twice.  Pat L.

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2006, 08:30:29 pm »
This is a good thread and I'm sorry I missed it somehow.

I'd like to add the image of the coin Pat mentioned earlier:

Crawford 390/1; Sydenham 783; Lucretia 2. 74 BCE.

[BROKEN IMAGE LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN - PLEASE UPLOAD PHOTOS]


G/<

Offline dmay

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2006, 10:51:31 am »
I appreciate the revival of this thread since it occurred before I joined.   I am a novice in numismatics and know little about astrological issues; I come to this interest via the back door of biblical studies (especially the study of the Apocalypsis which is replete with astrological symbols). One resource that could be helpful in understanding the astrological context of symbols on coins is the rarely mentioned or consulted Catalogus Codicum Astrologorum Graecorum  (CCAG)1898-1953.  Franz Cumont, an exceptional scholar, put together a team to catologue all ancient Greek astrological documents in European libraries.  It is 12 volumes in 20 parts.

I would understand the seven stars as the seven planets (Jupiter, Mars, Saturn, Sol, Venus, Mercury and Luna).  These seven are mentioned in numerous ancient authors, for example, Firmicus Maternus (around 330 C.E.), Ancient Astrology, Theology and Practice Matheseos Libri Viii (1975).  Also in the CCAG mentioned above is the Letter of Solomon to Roboam (first- century Judean writing).  In this letter the author notes seven planets.  Interestingly each planet is associated with a specific plant.  For example here is quote from the letter about Mars and its plant: "The plant of Ares (Mars) is the pentasites.  Collect it at the hour of Ares and wear its sword-shaped leaves wrapped in wolf fur and should myriads of enemies surround you, they will not be able to hurt you, . . . Wear the root in every battle and in every battle array, and you will conquer and be saved unharmed. . . ."  Evidently an ancient equivalent for body armor.

Perhaps the three stars that Pat mentioned on the Severan coins represent the moon, sun, and Venus.  These would have been considered the three most significant stars.  An interesting aside is that Jesus is associated with Venus, the "Bright and Morning Star" (2 Peter 1:19).  A male associated with Venus (Aphrodite) may seem odd but Ptolemy in Tetrabiblos 1.6.20 LCL notes that "They say too that the stars become masculine or feminine according to their aspects to the sun, for when they are morning stars and precede the sun they become masculine, and feminine when they are evening stars and follow the sun."

It does seem odd to count the moon twice as Pat noted.  While it seem logical that the crescent represent the moon, could it be something beside the moon?  Could it be a way to represent the heavens holding the stars/planets?  I did a brief look at some examples online and the stars are not aways inside the crescent however.  Looking at these examples did raise another question for me.  I noticed that dealers sometime display coins having the reverse with stars and the crescent differently.  Is the crescent under the stars?  Is it to the left?  Is it above?  How do we know?  (I did not see any with the crescent to the right). The example of the Trio coin is clear about the position of the crescent in relationship to viewing, but when the inscription surrounds the image perhaps it is not as clear which way the crescent should be viewed.  Which is up and which is down? 

David M.

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2006, 08:55:47 am »
I have just noticed this thread and would like to revive it if possible.    Attached are two examples where there seems to be no pattern as to what constitutes the 'right way up'  The second example I have photographed badly but going on the assumption that the legend starts at 7 o'clock the arrangement of the crescent and stars appears almost the exact opposite of the first example.

Additional examples show Severan Period' target='_blank'>Septimus Severus with one and three stars and a Geta with only one - there are others with four and two - if memory serves.

Is there a consensus as to the meaning of these particular variations?

Many thanks
Malcolm

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2009, 05:46:48 pm »
Geta, Nikopolis ad Istrum, with 5 stars , four above the crescent and one below. 

(added) Varbanov (English) I 3214.

Bill
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Offline Bamba123

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2009, 09:17:25 pm »
   Strack, noting that the same type is labeled SAECVLI FELICITAS, "The Happiness of the Age", on Eastern denarii of Septimius Severus, interprets Hadrian's type as indicating the return of the seven movable heavenly bodies to their original positions, signaling the beginning of a new golden age.
    He cites
    (1) Festus: "The mathematicians call it the Great Year when the seven wandering stars complete their individual courses and return to harmony with each other", and
    (2) Servius on Vergil's Eclogues:  "At the completion of the Great Year all of the stars return to their places and begin the next cycle of identical movements.  If the movements of the stars are repeated, it follows that everything that happened will recur again, since it is obvious that everything is determined by the motions of the stars.  For this reason Vergil says that the Golden Age will return and everything that happened before will be repeated."
    On this interpretation, we have to assume that the moon is depicted twice in the type:  it is represented not only by the crescent, but also by one of the seven stars above the crescent, since it is one of the seven wandering heavenly bodies, but is also by far the most prominent of them at night, and the only one that waxes and wanes.
:Tao-Rho_reversed:

Talk about a day late and a dollar short, I just happened on this very old discussion as it was refered to in another message, the Septimius minted in Emesa in 194 is one of the denari I have.
IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG COS II
SAECVL FELICIT
RIC IV_i, 416
I have asked and wondered about the number of stars, thanks for this discussion!
Jim
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Offline Red Henry

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2009, 06:50:24 pm »
This very interesting discussion of the moon-and-star types reminds me of the very common depictions, on Roman coins, of the world as a sphere. On reverses of the late 3rd century, we often see Jove, for example, handing the world to the emperor, and the world is depicted as a sphere.

I also have a provincial coin of Augustus, on the reverse of which he is allegorically represented as a Capricorn (his sign) with a sphere between its paws: he has the world in his hands.

--So, in either case, does the sphere thus shown represent the earth, making this solid evidence that the Romans knew the earth was round (as they well could have)? Or does the sphere represent the whole world including the celestial sphere, which might have had a flat earth at its center? Experts, what are your thoughts on this issue?

Red


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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2009, 06:12:33 am »
At the risk of reviving yet another dormant thread, this subject too has been debated at length on the forum. In this thread, for instance.

Short answer: yes, the Romans would have known that the Earth was round. The Greeks they conquered certainly did.
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2009, 01:05:04 pm »
The diameter of the Earth was measured, accurately, in 240 BC or so, by a guy called Eratosthenes, who was head of the library of Alexandria. No way were the Romans unaware that the planet is round!
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Offline quisquam

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2009, 01:24:05 pm »
As far as I know there was no agreement in ancient time. A round earth means that there are Antipodes, people on the other side with feet and head directing in the opposite direction. According to the german wikipedia this seemed absurd to some (Laktanz and Augustinus for example), while others thought it was possible (Pythagoras, Platon, Cicero).

We had discussions about this topic here, too:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=5673.0
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=40755.0

Stefan

Offline Red Henry

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2009, 07:17:46 am »
At the risk of reviving yet another dormant thread, this subject too has been debated at length on the forum. In this thread, for instance.

Short answer: yes, the Romans would have known that the Earth was round. The Greeks they conquered certainly did.

That is a very informative thread, and confirms what I had believed, that the Romans (and educated Europeans after them) knew quite well that the Earth was round. No wonder there are so many spherical depictions of the World on Roman coins.

I believe that Ptolemy's geography, published c. 150 a.d., shows that the Romans knew of the round Earth, although they may not have considered it proven, and even had a fair idea of its size (though, as noted above, these scientific advances may have been due much more to the Greeks than to the Romans themselves-- it is noteworthy that Ptolemy himself, in Alexandria, was writing in a Greek city). Although the first atlases accompanying Ptolemy's work may not have been published until c.1000 or 1100 a.d., his written descriptions from which they were made were clear enough on the subject.

At a much later date, as I recall, what Columbus had to convince Isabella of was that he could sail westward to the Indies without himself and crew dying of starvation and thirst before they got there-- which, of course, the sailing ships of their day could not do. It was just luck, for him, that he found a stopping-off point.

Red





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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2009, 05:32:35 pm »
Better than round, they knew it was spherical, and that from much earlier, from the times that ships first exited Gibraltar and crossed the equator and watched the starry sky.  Or sailed up the Nile.  Or went to the Land of Punt.  Or watched a ship approaching from over the horizon.
Compare "the Ancients" to (for example) "the North Americans".  Like Lactantius, some of the latter group accept that Extraterrestrials descend in New Mexico in Flying Saucers (on which my Apple Airport Extreme's antenna unit's design is playfully based) and come out to scare the modern New Mexicans out of their skins yet believe, because it's in print, that the world was created in 4004 BC (the book doesn't say by which calendar).  Other North Americans think empirically.  There doubtless were easily frightened Genoese in Columbus's day that thought the earth was round, all right, but a round disk, so that ships would fall off the edge into the jaws of sea monsters.
The zodiacal girdle and the apparent progression of signs itself tended to prompt empirical and theoretical minds to think.
Pat L.

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2009, 06:09:04 pm »
As so often, Pat makes a good point there. Among scholars, the roundness of the earth was widely accepted way before Ptolemy's geography as f.e. the comparison of the shape of the earth with a leather ball by Plato in the Phaidon-dialogue shows. Four hundred years later, Pliny listed the obvservations that lead to this knowledge point by point. It was Pliny, too, who observed that a solar eclipse in 59 AD took place between 1 and 2 pm whereas a Roman military officer stationed in Armenia reported the solar eclipse took place three hours later there. That, among many other observations, could only be explained by a spherical earth. Most educated people knew, or accepted that, some others didn't. Lactantius mainly refused the idea of a spherical earth with Antipodes for religious reasons.

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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2009, 03:47:13 pm »
Does anyone have the reference for Lactantius? Eusebius, incidentally, calculated 5199 years from Adam to Abraham. Numerous people have tried to establish the age of the Earth from the Bible, and no two of them have ever arrived at the same result.

Genesis 1 provides an elaborate description of a flat earth, which led some to conclude that it could not be spherical. I think we could well wonder whether the authors of the book really intended it as a literal description, especially when they placed it side by side with a contrasting account of creation in Genesis 2. I do wonder how the average farmer of the time would have imagined the planet, but unfortunately we've no way of knowing.
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Re: Hadrian denar, Crescent and Stars
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2009, 04:00:55 pm »
Returning to Red Henry's original question, the spheres depicted on coins usually represent the celestial sphere, frequently being adorned with zodiac belts and stars, so are irrelevant to the question of whether the ancients knew that the EARTH was a globe.
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