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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Medieval, Islamic and Crusader Coins (Moderators: AlexB, quadrans)  |  Topic: The Papal Corner 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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stlnats
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« Reply #175 on: January 18, 2013, 10:45:52 am »

So the 90 different types consisted of just different frames around the rev. inscription?

TY Curtis.

"Just"  ?!?!?!  LOL, a dangerous question for a potentially OCD collector!

But actually, the answer is yes.  There are some "mules" where the same obverse or reverse die was mated with more than 1 opposite die, but the difference is basically different intrepretations of the arms or reverse.  And there are different dates, but those seem almost secondary.  Allen Berman provides 7 numbers to the type, distinguished by the reverse legend in cartouche, additions of seraphs, laurel wreath, rectangular plaque, ornamental wreath, double hexagon, and palm wreath altho these only scratch the surface of the varieties.

edited to add: subtle varieties of early US coinage, esp cents and half dollars, have been avidly collected for years - viz the multiple Shelton and Overton numbers, respectively, for each date.  Never could really get into those, but these varieties are much more evident and much more fun for me.    

Here's another that I found in my files...need to make a gallery when I can scan more I guess.

 Grin
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curtislclay
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« Reply #176 on: January 18, 2013, 10:57:40 am »

Thanks for the response and the additional picture.

I was wondering what the date would look like on the reverse; it doesn't interfere as much as I thought it might.

What is an "OCD collector"? I only known that for Oxford Classical Dictionary!
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #177 on: January 18, 2013, 11:09:24 am »

If you notice, the third one I posted has dates on both sides: papal year on the obverse (Anno VIII) and the arabic date on the reverse.  I do agree that the date does seem to work fine on the reverse.  However, several varieties are undated or only have the regnal date on the obverse.  I've been very fortunate to pick up many of the more interesting varieties, and the variety exhibited by what is basically the same design is always a joy to behold.

Also, I tend to be an "eye appeal" vs technical grade collector and it occurs that this series seems to really reward that preference.  Often the geometric designs on a nicely toned VF can be just as appealing as these higher grade examples.  

edited to add: OCD - obsessive compulsive disorder.  Mostly tongue in check and only a minor tendency in my case, I think, but it does make finding varieties a real pleasure.  BTW, I also "do" folles of RIC VI.  I've always considered RIC as a bit of a checklist so you can see how this can get out of control unless reined in periodically. (also LOL, well mostly).    

 Grin

  
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silvernut
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« Reply #178 on: January 19, 2013, 12:06:36 pm »

Didn't see your coins yesterday. Once again, very nice, the 3 of them!! I saw the CNG testoni (is this the correct plural?), but I am currently focused only on piastre, so I'm glad to say I didn't make you pay more by bidding on them!

Anyway, congratulations, and thank you for the interesting info. I still got much to learn about Papal coinage.

Regards,
Ignasi

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stlnats
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« Reply #179 on: January 19, 2013, 01:36:48 pm »

Thanks Ignasi, and I'm glad you didn't make me pay more for them too!  CNG had 4 of this general type, two I already owned so was able to focus on the two obverse dated ones which frankly were new to me too.  I like your comment: "I still got much to learn about Papal coinage."  Altho a newby to this group, papal/vatican has been a long term, but frankly secondary, interest; but I learned something new with these two coins and its clear that your comment applies perfectly well to me also!

 Grin
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« Reply #180 on: January 19, 2013, 02:10:32 pm »

2013 has started out with a bang for my papal/vatican collection. In addition to the testones (or is it testoni - that just doesn't quite sound right to me but I'm a midwesterner so the nuance may elude me), my cunning strategy of whining and annoying people finally paid off and I just received the annual medal for 2012, year 8 of the current pope. Its actually a nicely done design, much better than that for 2011. Like many earlier medals, it also commemorates an important event for the year, the XIII General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops held during October 2012. The subject of the Synod was "The New Evangelization for the Transmission of the Christian Faith" and I think that the reverse nicely fits with the theme.

As with other years the mintage was 1000 in gold and 6000 each in silver and bronze. Attached is an image of the medal I shamelessly lifted from an Italian discussion forum I came across after googling some of the key words from the insert included with the medal.  The forum also provided the technical info from the official announcement which I translated using Babelfish and Goggle translate. Not 100% translations, but more than adequete to get the gist of what's going on...

On the reverse: around the word SYNODUS EPISCOPORUM XIII COETUS GENERALIS and the biblical quote "SICUT MISIT ME PATER, ET EGO MITTO VOS " (Jn 20, 21 "Just as the Father has sent me, so send I you" ). At the center, the portrait of Christ Pantocrator, Byzantine mosaic in Palatina Chapel of the Palazzo Reale in Palermo, 12TH-14th century. The image of Christ Pantocrator, "he who governs the entire universe", is the universal message of faith in Jesus Christ, the first Evangelizer and revelation of God. He blesses with the three fingers of the right hand, symbolizing the Holy Trinity. The book of life held in the left hand brings the verse of Chapter 12. 8 of John's Gospel "I am the light of the world. Those who follow me, won't walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

While the reverse is admittedly a bit cluttered, I very much like the use of earlier iconography on later coins and medals so the thing "works" for me and I think its a reasonable effort overall.

Hope this isn't too far off topic for the group.  One of the attractions of the Papal/Vatican series is that current issues continue to reflect a tradition dating back hundreds of years.  Some themes and ideas are recycled, but with new eyes, context and intrepretation to keep them up to date.  

What fun!   Grin

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Iosephus
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« Reply #181 on: January 20, 2013, 11:57:26 am »

What an interesting thread!  Stlnats informed me of the friendly discussion over here and I figured I'd join in.  It's great to see some other collectors of papal material, and I look forward to viewing the coins and medals posted and contributing where possible.

I personally collect papal medals of the Renaissance and Baroque eras, which I define to cover the popes from Nicholas V through Clement XII (1455-1740).  To start, I'll share one of my favorite medals:


Gilt Bronze, 56.5 mm Ø, 52.3 g

Obverse: Bust of Julius II facing right, bareheaded and wearing a cope decorated with arabesques and icons. Around, IVLIVS · LIGVR · PAPA · SECVNDVS · MCCCCCVI ("Julius II, Ligurian, Pope, 1506").

Reverse: A shepherd, seated on a stone under an oak tree, pointing his flock of sheep towards a path leading to a gateway to an enclosure on a mountain. Around, PEDO SERVATAS OVES AD REQVIEM AGO ("The sheep that were preserved by the staff I lead to their repose").

Cast medal by Caradosso Foppa commemorating the foundation ceremony for the new St. Peter's Basilica. This is a sister medal to the more famous version showing Bramante's design for the new basilica. Modesti suggests that the version showing the building was created to serve as the foundation medal, while this version with an allegorical representation was intended to be distributed in commemoration of the laying of the first stone. The reverse illustration can be viewed as the Pope (represented by the shepherd) indicating to the faithful (the sheep) the new erection of the basilica on the Vatican Hill. The staff referred to in the reverse inscription takes on the dual meaning of a shepherd's staff and a pastoral staff. That the shepherd represents the Pope is further reinforced by the oak tree under which he sits, which is a symbol of the della Rovere family of which Julius (born Giuliano della Rovere) was from. The Italian word "rovere" literally means "oak tree".

Julius II undertook to rebuild the original St. Peter's Basilica which had been erected by the emperor Constantine. Ideas had been considered during the pontificate of Nicholas V for renovating the original structure, which had fallen into ruinous shape, but Julius decided to entirely demolish it and build a new basilica. The design and construction was entrusted to the architect Donato Bramante, who drew plans for a Greek style (square) church topped by a large dome. The first stone was laid by Julius during a ceremony on April 18, 1506. Construction on the basilica would proceed for over a century, passing through the hands of many architects and popes. In the end, the final basilica retains virtually nothing of Bramante's original design.

References: C.N.O.R.P. 188; Toderi-Vannel 11; Venuti XVII
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Joe
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« Reply #182 on: January 20, 2013, 04:36:10 pm »

Welcome, Iosephus! And what a great medal, too, which I had never seen before! Apart from Roman denarii, I collect Papal medals, and have recently just ventured into the world of piastre. Good to see other people with whom to share these items.

I don't have much time now, but I'll share one of the latest medals I have purchased (I might have shown it here at FORVM already, I don't recall now). It commemorates the Holy League established in 1684 between the Holy See, Poland, Austria and Venice, and it does so by iconically depicting the 4 crowns of the powers represented. A great Hamerani opus, in my opinion.

Regards,
Ignasi
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stlnats
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« Reply #183 on: January 20, 2013, 11:44:38 pm »

Hey Joe, great to see you made it, hope you find it as positive an experience as I.  There is a great deal of knowledge/experience in this group and folks have been friendly and helpful.  I've already learned a lot by just reading thru the earlier posts. 

Nifty medals too - Joe and Ignasi. 

 Grin
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Iosephus
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« Reply #184 on: January 21, 2013, 08:46:09 am »

Ignasi, nice medal!  The Hamerani family sure made a whole bunch of medals, and this one's got some great detail on it!

Stlnats, thanks again for letting me know about this discussion!  I too have learned a great deal about the older papal coins from reading through this thread.  It's too bad that John C. Ryan does not post here anymore.
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Joe
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« Reply #185 on: January 21, 2013, 09:01:17 am »

In addition to the coins and medals I have, I also have a small collection of what I call "pendant medallions", the kind that are sold to tourists in Rome (and other places) in gift shops, etc. as devotional items, or souvenirs of their visit.

Usually undated, and made of base metal (typically brass, I suppose) plated with a very thin wash of silver.  Also, they're almost always provided with a loop for hanging as a pendant.  Most of what I have are items that family and friends have brought back home after visiting Rome.  

I've been scanning and adding these items to the LaMoneta website over the last several days.    http://numismatica-italiana.lamoneta.it/cat/W-F

This one, however, is a bit of an anomaly.  It's unofficial, and silver-plated.  But it's also nearly 50mm and over 69 grams--much too big and heavy for hanging around the neck.  And it lacks the loop to do so, anyway.   Looks like it was issued to commemorate the election of Bl. John XXIII in 1958.  

I like the engraving of Christ as the Good Shepherd handing the Keys to Peter in front of the rest of the Apostles, with the dome of St. Peter's Basilica in the background.

Apologies for the poor quality of the scans...the medal is in such high relief that my scanner has a hard time focusing...
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stlnats
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« Reply #186 on: January 21, 2013, 11:28:27 am »

Pabst,

Your John 23rd is listed in Calo's "Le Medaglie del Vaticano" as 42bis.  Its a "probalimente" attribution, " assigned to Giampaoli for the election of J 23rd.  It was privately produced by Sensi in Milan, whose inscription should be at the end of the legend in small letters.  Calo indicates that the medal is known in silver and bronze and is 60mm; their color illustration shows a nice looking bronze. 

I don't seek out unofficials, but several have found their way to me and I think I've seen similarly privately produced medals of large size (but not this design) with a silver wash on base medal which I always assumed provided a lower price point for budget minded souvenir hunters, tourists and collectors.  Quality varies  from close to official to almost laughable. 

I assume these are listed in Modesti's "Catalogo le Medaglie di Papa Giovanni 23°" but I don't have a copy since its beyond the scope of my interest.  I've seen privately assembled "mint sets," some in red cards similar to that used officially. using these types of medals sometimes as a substitute for the 500 Lire silver.   And these unofficials seem to provide a perennial issue for casual collectors since limited info is widely availabe, at least in the US.

I do like your idea of a "pendant medallions" collection.  Often these are well executed and copy "official designs."  Would like to see others as you have a chance.

 Grin
 

 


   
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Iosephus
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« Reply #187 on: January 21, 2013, 03:57:15 pm »

Pabst,

As a follow up to stlnats's post, this medal is listed in Modesti's volume as #10, and he illustrates a 49.6 mm bronze specimen from the Vatican collectionModesti attributes the medal as the work of Enrico Manfrini, not Pietro Giampaoli.  This makes sense, since the style seems radically different than the medals of Giampaoli I have seen, especially compared to Giampaoli's own (official) medals for John XXIII's election.

The design is quite nice, expecially for an unofficial medal, and is certainly much better than most of the smaller medals peddled to tourists.
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Joe
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« Reply #188 on: January 25, 2013, 05:56:26 am »

My medal is definitely 49.8mm, not 60mm.  Weight is 69g.

Next to Christ's arm on the reverse (roughly at 3 o'clock), there is the word ITALY and a small shield with the letters E S and M inside.  Would that be the 'signature' of Manfrini?
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« Reply #189 on: January 25, 2013, 06:07:21 am »

Here's another of my "pendant medallions".  This one is a very faithful redux of the official medal for Holy Year 1950, only in much smaller (and wearable!) 22mm size, and with an integral loop.   The silver plate here seems quite a bit thicker than the usual vaguely-silver wash. 
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« Reply #190 on: January 25, 2013, 05:33:31 pm »

Next to Christ's arm on the reverse (roughly at 3 o'clock), there is the word ITALY and a small shield with the letters E S and M inside.  Would that be the 'signature' of Manfrini?

Modesti only notes the word ITALY and that the mark of Senesi di Milano is next to it.  Presumably that is the shield.  I cannot make out any letters, but E S M could possibly have something to do with Senesi di Milano (I don't know what the E would stand for)

FYI, the Pius XII pendant you posted is assigned number 79 in the Cusumano-Modesti volume "Pio XII Nella Medaglia".  Interestingly, it lists only silver and gold (!) versions.
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Joe
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« Reply #191 on: January 26, 2013, 02:05:19 pm »

Thanks for the attribution!  

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of Modesti's Corpus Numismatum Omnium Romanorum Pontificum (C.N.O.R.P.), Volume I here in the US (or will ship to the US)?


Here's another Holy Year pendant medallion, this time from 1925, also commemorating the Canonization of St. Teresa of the Child Jesus...


the scratches in the reverse field was an ill-advised attempt at "improving" it, when I was kid...after I had already scratched MCM XXV there.  Yeh, I know....it was stupid.

Aluminum, 1.9g, 26.5mm
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« Reply #192 on: January 26, 2013, 05:09:07 pm »

FYI, the Pius XI medalet was designed by Egidio Boninsegna and engraved by Filipo Lorioli and was struck by the firm Lorioli & Castelli of Milan.  It is listed as number 129 in the Cusumano-Modesti Pio XI volume.

Unfortunately, I can't help with your search for a copy of CNORP Vol. I.
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Joe
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« Reply #193 on: January 27, 2013, 08:02:13 am »

Thanks again Iosephus!

Here's another pendant medallion, this time of Bl. Pius IX, commemorating his 50th episcopal anniversary (1877).  The reverse is what is called a Miraculous Medal, and the inscription (roughly) translates to "Mary, conceived without Original Sin, pray for us".

brass, 3.13g, oval, 19.1mm x 23.5mm
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« Reply #194 on: January 28, 2013, 09:44:04 am »

Another one, with a similar reverse theme, is this pendant medallion of Leo XIII.

brass, 20mm, 3.2g
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« Reply #195 on: January 29, 2013, 07:21:44 am »

An interesting papal "twofer" arrived yesterday, part of my continuing education about this interesting area.

At first glance, its a sede vacante of 1691.  However, it is also the annual medal for 1691.  Annuals were, and continue to be, distributed on the feast day of Saints Peter and Paul, June 29th.  Alexander VIII had died on February 1st and a new pope, Innocent XII, was not elected until July 12th so it was appropriate that the annual medal reflect the interregnum.  

While I was generally aware of these, it was not until I started to research this medal that I better appreciated how the dates impacted types.  For instance, althought it spanned parts of three calendar years, only a single annual medal was issued during Alexander VIII's reign, in 1690, since he was not elected untl October of 1689.  Similarly, Innocent's first annual was issued the year after his election in 1692.  

Similar Sede/Annuales were issued during 1730, 1740 and 1758.  

As I understand it, Modesti indicates 56 gold and 67 silvers were distributed at the time, altho the totals of originals was slightly higher at 60 and 100 respectively.  This is a very nice, but not particularly early, bronze restrike but certainly works for me.

References are:

Still having a bit of a problem with scanning bronzes, but hope this will suffice.

What fun!   Grin
    
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« Reply #196 on: January 30, 2013, 09:09:45 am »

That's a great piece--thanks for sharing!
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« Reply #197 on: January 30, 2013, 07:48:00 pm »

Some nice pieces, Pabst and stlnats!
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Joe
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« Reply #198 on: January 30, 2013, 09:01:33 pm »

Thanks for the positive comments.  Joe was kind enough to remind me that the 4 gold and 33 silvers not distributed on the feast day were returned for melting; in rereading my original I realized that it wasn't clear on this point.  Thanks for having my back!


 Grin  
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« Reply #199 on: January 31, 2013, 08:36:31 am »

Thanks Iosephus! 

Are either of the two "miraculous medals" I displayed (for Pius IX and for Leo XIII) listed in any of the Cusumano-Modesti volumes?
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