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« Reply #100 on: July 24, 2009, 02:03:45 am »

Yes, I have found this thread extremely informative over the last few days. Now that I'm forcing myself not to buy any of my Caracalla coins (I'm going on holidays, and I've had bad experiences before with packages arriving in August), I find this topic fills my summer restlessness for numismatic knowledge!

Now, for instance, the following medal was recently sold online. It looks very similar to the only one I've ever handled which I mentioned above, but the Pope featured is surely different. I'm guessing that this medal is not contemporary with the Pope it depicts, Sixtus IIII (15th century), ... or is it? If it's not, when where most of these medals minted? And why? Would they be the equivalent of the Roman ´Consecratio´ issues?

Also, I read that Papal medals were usually in silver or gold, but that the engraving artists did bronze replicates of their own which are the ones most people collect today. Is this right?

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« Reply #101 on: August 05, 2009, 03:03:46 pm »

Odds are, your Sixtus IV medal is a restrike.  But honestly I can't really tell one way or the other. 

From what I've read, it was common practice, once the gold and silver strikings were completed, to give the engraver the used dies.  He (and his heirs...and later whoever else had possession of the dies) could strike as many medals as they wanted.  Many Papal medals were restruck in this way into (at least) the 19th Century.

If it is a restrike, at least the dies don't appear to have rusted (like on some of the bronze medals I have), so that's obviously a plus here. 

The originals at least were contemporary with the reign of Sixtus IV (1471-1484). This one is listed in the Mazio catalog, as # 21.
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« Reply #102 on: August 22, 2009, 03:08:19 pm »

Muntoni doesn't really deal with the subject of overdates, and Krause does it only sporadically...anyway here are six different overdates from my collection...

Apologies for my scanner...in some cases you can't see much detail, but with the naked eye, the overdates are quite a bit bolder.

1.  Clement XII Grosso 1737 over 6, A.VIII.  Muntoni 124b/Berman 2654/KM 870
You can see the "crescent" of the lower left of the 6 under the horizontal bar of the 7

2.  Benedict XIV Carlino 1751 over 0, A.XI. Muntoni 156c/Berman 2774/KM 1165
the picture isn't clear here, but the lefthand curve of the 0 is present.

3. Clement XIII ½ Grosso 1761 over 0, A.III. Muntoni 30/Berman 2908/KM 995
This was sold to me as '1762' (owing, I think, to the peculiar shape of the '1's here).

4. Pius VII Giulio 1817 over 6-B, A.XVIII. Muntoni 40/Berman 3230/KM 1079
on this very worn specimen, the lower left "crescent" of the 6 is present

5. Pius VII 2 Giulii, 1818 over 6-B, A.XVII. Muntoni 39a/Berman 3229/KM "1816"
the shape of the 8 here, compared to the other 8, gives it away. 
NOTE:  While KM gives this the number 1816, that number does not fit in with the rest of their listings, so I am convinced they somehow carried over the date into their numbering sequence!

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« Reply #103 on: August 22, 2009, 03:11:05 pm »

One more:

6. Pius IX 5 Baiocchi 1850 over 49-R, ANN.IV, Muntoni 25a/Berman 3321/KM 1346
You can see the lower bar/serif of the 4 under the 5, and part of the lower curve of the 9 under the 0.  What you really can't see on the scan, but you can see on the actual coin, is the middle crossbar of the 4 under the 5.
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« Reply #104 on: August 24, 2009, 05:47:12 am »

Repunching of dates as a quick-and-dirty way to get new dies was quite common in the Papal mints especially in the XIX c. (as well as in several other Italian mints of the time) Actually, I didn't see so many examples from the XVIII c. until now. Thanks for showing!

4. Pius VII Giulio 1817 over 6-B, A.XVIII. Muntoni 40/Berman 3230/KM 1079
on this very worn specimen, the lower left "crescent" of the 0 is present

This variety was unknown to me, could it be the standard this coin looks like? Look HERE

5. Pius VII 2 Giulii, 1818 over 6-B, A.XVII. Muntoni 39a/Berman 3229/KM "1816"
the shape of the 8 here, compared to the other 8, gives it away. 
NOTE:  While KM gives this the number 1816, that number does not fit in with the rest of their listings, so I am convinced they somehow carried over the date into their numbering sequence!

This is well known instead, and is rare: see HERE (note 2)

Regards, P.  Smiley
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« Reply #105 on: September 22, 2009, 02:41:30 pm »

No one has posted anything in a month so I thought I would stir the embers a little.

Here is my most recent addition:

AR DOPPIO GIULIO Sede Vacente 25mm

Camerlengo Cardinal Carlo Rezzonico
2 February -19 May 1769

Obv: SEDE ∙ VACAN / [T]E ∙ MDCCLXIX
         Shield 176 below canopy and crossed keys

Rev: VENI ∙ SANC [TE] SPIRITUS
         Radiant dove
         QUINTO ∙ DI  ∙ SCV in small letters (1/5 scudo)

Toned with bright high spots, holed

Berman 2925 (CNI 2, S 3-4, M 2)

The Camerlengo was not the Carlo Rezzonico whom was Clement XIII and died just prior to this period of sede vacante, but rather his nephew.

I have to admit that collecting papal coins is not my primary passion, and I’m not made out of money so I took another step on the slippery slope of holed coins.  I’m not going out of my way to find them.  Not the most glamorous coin in the world, but it has its charms I think.

I have had my eye out for a cheap Forni reprint of Cinagli's work, but I have been unable to find a copy.  Maybe a more realistic hope would be that someday  it will just be scanned  and free on line. Muntoni is a little out of my budget right now.






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« Reply #106 on: September 23, 2009, 06:25:24 am »

I took another step on the slippery slope of holed coins

Agh! You're sailing off to the dark side...  Grin

Seriously, it's really difficult to find those SEDE VACANTE coins without holes. It definitely must be related to the iconography. The Holy Ghost portrayed as a dove started to be an important subject of worship in the early modern era (probably after the Council of Trent) so this should come as no surprise, I guess.

Just my small piece of advice: save some money, buy Muntoni. Papal coins won't be secondary to you anymore  Wink
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« Reply #107 on: September 24, 2009, 06:51:01 am »

By the way, if you're interested in a bloody good gallery of Sede Vacante coins, have a look HERE  Cool

P.S. From time to time I keep posting links to the Italian numismatics forum. I hope this is not against the rules of this board. Until now I didn't get roasted, so I'll keep doing it without further comments  Wink
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« Reply #108 on: September 24, 2009, 11:41:32 am »

Wow! Thanks for the link. I had to join to see the attachments, similar to this Forum, but worth it! Graves nummi!

     I think I will buy a copy of Muntoni soon, I can't really live with Berman, not that there is really anything wrong with it, just too general for me (although the coats of arms tables are great).  My papal coin collecting will come to a screeching halt for several months, but I need the books, my library doesn't have them, they are too long to scan and online research is not really my thing.

JPW
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« Reply #109 on: September 24, 2009, 03:24:00 pm »

Muntoni is really terrific; I recommend it as well.  (Berman uses the same coat of arms tables as Muntoni, by the way). 

Cinagli is good as a "stopgap"--but only if you can find it for cheap--until you can afford Muntoni...I used it for years in conjunction with the Berman, Bobba, Herkner, Eklund, etc. books I have.

Muntoni trumps all of these.    Even though I don't speak, or read, a word of Italian (and nowadays, thanks to BabelFish and other online translation websites, you don't really need to), Muntoni is still easy to use.  It's the Caddilac (or should I say Maserati) of Papal coin books.
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« Reply #110 on: September 25, 2009, 07:28:46 am »

I had to join to see the attachments

Ops, didn't notice, sorry. I'm just logged in all the time  Grin
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« Reply #111 on: September 25, 2009, 07:38:50 am »

I just came across an old, used (somewhat abused  Wink) copy of LE MONETE PAPALI DEL XIX SECOLO by Vico D'Incerti (publ.1961 by the Italian Numismatics Society). Although it is not big on illustrations, the catalog part has a nice, detailed treatment of varieties which is completely missing from Berman, largely missing from Muntoni and also rather sketchy in other contemporary catalogs of Italian decimal coins such as Gigante or Montenegro (the successors to Bobba-style handbooks, for those who know the matter). If the period between Pius VII and Pius IX is of interest to you, this is a very nice addition to the other books. Great buy if you can get it for cheap (I paid 20 €).
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« Reply #112 on: September 25, 2009, 07:59:35 am »

Speaking of Papal coin references, I keep seeing this come up on eBay:

[Broken link removed by Admin]

This purports to be (taken from the listing) a:

CATALOG OF COINS OF PAPAL COINAGE OF POPES OF VATICAN
FROM 668 AD UPTO 1605 AD INCLUDES UNSEEN & COLOUR
PICS OF MANY RARE COINS WITH THEIR ESTIMATED PRICES
205 PAGES
IN A CD IN PDF FORMAT IN ENGLISH LANGUAGE CAN BE VIEWED ONLY ON PC OR MOBILE

I've never heard of this reference before, has anyone else?
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« Reply #113 on: September 25, 2009, 09:13:42 am »

Sounds like it could be a CD copy of some recent (because of the color pictures) auction catalog, but I can't think of a recent auction with 200+ pages of papal coins only. I can't think of a BOOK with color pictures of papal coins, actually. Would be interesting to investigate. Any volunteer for buyingGrin
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« Reply #114 on: October 22, 2009, 11:16:00 pm »

My latest addition to my Papal collection (I may proudly add unholed):

AR GIULIO 26mm CLEMEMT XIII Rome (6 July 1758-2 February 1769)
Carlo Rezzonico

Obv: ∙ CLEM ∙ XIII. / PONT ∙ M ∙ A  ∙ V ∙
Rezzonico arms with crossed keys and tiara above
Rev: OBLECTAT
   IVSTOS
   MISERCOR
     DIA
   1763
All within palm wreath mintmark 117 at bottom (two crossed hammers)   


Berman 2902 (CNI 59; S. 66-71; M. 20)

Compassion delights just men is my translation.  Please enlighten me if I am missing some reference I should know.


JPW
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« Reply #115 on: October 23, 2009, 10:25:25 am »

Ciao Petrus, welcome back to the bright side  Grin ! I have two items of this coins, both from different dies as your coin and different between themselves. This must have been quite a big emission, but apparently it is not so easily found. I catalogued both my coins under Muntoni 20, Berman 2902. Can you see the differences why yours is M.22-23?

The shield on reverse is the arms of the Presidente delle Zecche (President of the Papal Mints, an honorable but rather void title, the only serious duty being to stand by at every estrazione, i.e. when coins were assayed, certified and delivered into circulation). This one should be Monsignor Casoni's, if I remember right. Consider that at this time the only papal mints striking gold and silver were Rome and Bologna, that was using a totally different monetary system with different denominations and imagery, so no mintmark was actually required. Translation of the reverse motto sounds ok to me.

P.S. By looking better at the coins, the second one could be a die match to yours. This looks more reasonable to me.
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« Reply #116 on: October 23, 2009, 10:38:29 am »

  Oops, I copied the Muntoni # from Berman 2901 by mistake.  Thanks for pointing that error out! 

I think you were right the first time about the obverse dies; the position of the V in the legend appears different on all three.
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« Reply #117 on: October 25, 2009, 05:20:23 pm »

You're probably right. Also the design of the... nappe Undecided (what's the English for those thingies hanging from the bishop's hat?) seems to be different in each coin.
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« Reply #118 on: October 25, 2009, 05:59:23 pm »

You're probably right. Also the design of the... nappe Undecided (what's the English for those thingies hanging from the bishop's hat?) seems to be different in each coin.


It all depends on which kind of bishop's hat we're talking about.
1. The two flaps which hang from a bishop's mitre or the papal tiara are lappets.
2. The"fiocchi" which hang  from a bishop's or a cardinal's broad felt hat ("galero") - that we see on Sede Vacante coins - are tassels.
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« Reply #119 on: October 26, 2009, 11:18:33 am »

Grazie Maffeo  Grin
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« Reply #120 on: November 09, 2009, 09:34:04 pm »

A recent addition to the collection:

AR GIULIO 26mm INNOCENT XII Rome (12 July 1691-27 September 1700)

Obv: Obv: ∙ INNOCEN ∙ XII. PONT ∙ M ∙ A  ∙ IX ∙
Pignatelli arms with crossed keys and tiara above

Rev: ANNO ∙ IVBEI / LEI ∙ MDCC
Holy door with four Corinthian columns

Nice tone, from Italy; holed

Berman 2255 (CNI 141; S. 104-105; M52)

A Holy Year issue; Innocent's year 9, 1700
 
  I visited the Vatican during a Holy Year (December 2000 after x-mas) and was overwhelmed by the number of people at St. Peter’s. I ended up not going through the doorway and walking around to get inside.   Opportunity lost.

What is depicted inside the door on the reverse? A cloud with rays?

JPW
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« Reply #121 on: November 10, 2009, 05:38:34 am »

Hi Petrus! Definitely a lovely coin, even if it has that... thing...  Grin

Holy Year issues could be a very interesting sub-collection of Papal coins on their own. Urban VIII's testone with Veronica's veil within the door is my current favorite (a coin on which I might spend more than my usual budget, one day). The image pictured on your coin (which is a cloud with rays, by the way) is usually described as "splendori". I guess this is a representation of God's grace coming over the pilgrims begging for "indulgentia plenaria" (not the sins themselves, which are pardoned through confession, but the consequences of sins are removed, and the faithful's bill of N purgatory years is canceled)

P.S. Is the testone mentioned above a Holy Year issue really? Now I'm a bit confused ...
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« Reply #122 on: November 12, 2009, 02:23:02 pm »

A rather modern medal:



Vatican(?), ca. 1963-68 AD.,
Silver Medal (28 mm / 14,86 g),
Obv.: JOHANNES XXIII P. M. - PAULUS VI P. M. + PIUS XII P. M. , three busts facing left.
Rev.: 1000 (indicating pure silver) , 3 papal coats of arms with keys and crosses.
 - Stemma Summi Pontificis Ioannis Papae XXIII: lion of St. Marcus over tower, two fleur de lis. Scutum in inferiore loco rubrum, zona argentea intersectum, quod mediam prae se fert turrim et ex utraque parte argenteum lilium. In superiore loco argenteum, ostendens aligerum leonem S. Marci, nimbo caput circumdatum ac dextro anteriore pede librum sustinentem cum inscriptione: Pax tibi Marce, Evangelista meus. Imminent scuto Claves decussatae ac Tiara de more.
 - Stemma Summi Pontificis Pius PP. XII: dove with branch over water
 - Stemma Summi Pontificis Paulus PP. VI; 3 fleur de lis over ? .

Edge: (blank), no visible designer/issuer mark or signature;

For at least 800 years, each Pope has had his own personal coat of arms that serves as a symbol of his papacy. The first Pope whose arms are known with certainty is Pope Innocent IV (1243-1254). Earlier popes were only attributed arms in the 17th century.
All recent popes' coats of arms contained the image of the papal tiara. Benedict XVI has altered heraldic custom and used instead the mitre and pallium . The papal coat of arms traditionally features a gold and silver key, representing the power to bind and to loose on earth (silver) and in heaven (gold). These are a reference to St Matthew's Gospel, chapter 16, verses 18-19:
    "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Thus in ecclesiastical heraldry, the keys symbolise the spiritual authority of the Papacy as the Vicar of Christ on Earth.

Maybe someone can tell me the cause of the issue and date.  Huh

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« Reply #123 on: November 13, 2009, 07:16:51 am »

Hello,

Just a small point. I note on the reverse, the business end of the keys is different. Do they change the locks every time there is a new pope?

Seriously now, is there some meaning to it?

Many thanks for a very interesting thread.

br

cr
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« Reply #124 on: November 13, 2009, 07:52:26 am »

Seriously now, is there some meaning to it?

no, just different design
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