Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Please look at the RECENT ADDITIONS and PRICE REDUCTIONS at the top and bottom of the page. All items are guaranteed authentic for eternity! Thanks for supporting Forum with your PURCHASES! Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Point your mouse to a coin in RECENT ADDITIONS or PRICE REDUCTIONS on this page to see the the price. All items are guaranteed authentic for eternity! Thanks for supporting Forum with your PURCHASES!


FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Medieval, Islamic and Crusader Coins (Moderators: AlexB, quadrans)  |  Topic: The Papal Corner 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 ... 13 Go Down Print
Author Topic: The Papal Corner  (Read 106879 times)
lv88
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 339


WWW
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2006, 02:20:45 pm »

Well, organizing really depends on the size of your collection, the focus and otherwise. As one with a small collection of mostly kings of Cilician Armenia, and Shaddadid emirs, I just put them into an old Russian album for coins that is about 6x8 with plastic. One of these days I will get a cabinet, that is when I have a lot more expensive coins ...

Logged
Follibus Fanaticus
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


I love this forum!


« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2006, 09:55:04 am »

ON COIN CABINETS

I found an old shirt display "box" used in men’s stores during the 1950’s.  This tall piece of furniture has shallow drawers for the display of shirts.  I open the cabinet, pull the drawers open and insert trays from coin cases.  [The cases have loosened over time.  The coins fall out of their slots when the case is carried from place to place.]  Now, I can pull out a drawer. Sit it on a table, and look at coins.

Unfortunately, no papal coins are in this case.  They stay in the bank.

Cheers,

Follibus Fanaticus
Logged

Follibus Fanaticus
Maffeo
Guest
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2006, 10:06:07 am »

But if one uses Walsh numbers to order papal coins, where is one to put the anti-popes? Muntoni classifies all anti-popes in a separate section. But this is anchronistic, for it fails to recognize that the anti-popes were often not considered such in their own time and their coinage is as truly papal coinage as that of the worthies who, today, are considered the real popes. I prefer Berman's listing of both popes and anti-popes together in the chronological order of their election and order the pieces in my collection similarly. Indeed, if one uses election dates in a manner similar to that in which Follibus Fanaticus uses Walsh numbers, one can order one's collection just as conveniently and far more respectfully of historical reality.
Well, that was just my two baiocchis worth  Grin
Logged
Follibus Fanaticus
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


I love this forum!


« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2006, 11:49:02 am »

The Extent of a Collection of Coins of the POPES since 1300

How many coins in a papal collection

An off the cuff estimate says 176, but hat depends upon what you wish to collect.

I will not deal with the popes who issued before 983.  Most of these never come on the market. I deal with coins of the 2d millennium and issues of the present pope.  The first coin "of a pope" is registered as 1300.  The election coins of 1268-71 pose a different series, often included with the popes.

First the Popes.

Boniface VIII issued grossi and denari [Yes denari has only one eye in Italian.  In Latin it has two eyes.] from a "French" mint in 1300.  All but four popes from that date on have issued coins.  That’s 68 popes issuing, so we’re up to 68 coins.  Add Five antipopes who issue.  Now we have 73 coins, which includes only one coin of each pope and antipope.  Most papal collectors are not satisfied with that.  The number becomes more complex; meaning we drift into what I call subtotals.

Many collectors want a coat of arms and a portrait for popes who issue them.  For 13 popes up till 1417, the total is easy – zero.  They issue neither portraits nor coats of arms, so the collection gets a subtotal of 13 coins without portraits or coats of arms.  From 1417 till 1471 six popes issue coins that show their own or the family’s coat of arms. So, till 1471, we have a collection of 21 coins.  We’re still at one coin per individual.

Sixtus IV [1471-84] issued the first papal portrait coin.  It has his coat of arms on the reverse, so I suppose you could get away with one coin for him, Gregory XIII, Paul V and other popes who issue such a combination.  Until I spend hours going through the monstrously big Muntoni book [He has a plate for virtually every type!]  I will award Sixtus IV and most other popes two coins.  Exceptions now arise.

Take the following exception – Innocent IX.  When his hometown, Bologna, got the news of the 1591 election of a native son, they rushed out a gold double scudo [doppia] showing Innocent’s coat of arms.  Elected on October 29, he followed the politics of his fan, Philip II of Spain, but not for long.  He died of a cold on December 30.  We subtract one number from the total, because he has no portrait ON A COIN.  Innocent VIII, Pius III and Marcellus II also failed to issue portraits.  Take 4 from portrait total.  That give us [inclusive counting] 54 coats of arms and 50 portraits for 104 coins.  New subtotal: 125 coins 104 plus 21], and I do not know a papal collector satisfied with this number.  They want more.

Collectors seek out the sedibus vacantibus [That’s an ablative plural of sede vacante in Latin.] issues that start in 1268–1271.  Sedibus vacantibus issues show up intermittently in 1378 [?] and 1415-17.  After 1521, issues for sede vacante become fairly regular.  Most show the arms of the Cardinal Chamberlain, Chief Cook and Bottle Washer of the papacy.  His reward for changing light bulbs [and other duties, such as running the mint] is to have his arms on election coins, which he theoretically issues.  Forty-three issues of the sede vacante since 1521 show arms; three previous issues do not.  Total issues for sede vacante:  46.

We have one or two coins for 68 popes…c.125 coins. [Note some inclusive counting.]
We have coins of antipopes…5.
We have 46 issues for sede vacante [elections]  46

 THIS ESTIMATE OF 176 COINS FOR A MINIMUL PAPAL COLLECTION IS SUBJECT TO ERROR.  I MAY WELL REVISE IT AFTER CONSULTING THE MUNTONI TEXT AND PLATES AND OTHER WRITINGS. [For example, Muntoni awards no sede vacante coin for 1549-50; however, Martinori lists two issues – Rome and Bologna.]

Happy to Entertain Other Counts,

Follibus Fanaticus
Logged

Follibus Fanaticus
lv88
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 339


WWW
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2006, 03:11:37 pm »

hmm, and what can be said of papal metal and dinomination in you collection ... Are there many? is the collection heavily weighed along any particular are or is it diversified.

Best,
Levon
Logged
Maffeo
Guest
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2006, 03:38:55 pm »

Follibus Fanaticus implicitly raises the really crunchy question in the preceding post: if one decides to collect papal coins, just how is one to go about doing so? After all, one realizes very early that no one could possibly collect everything, so one needs to make some choices and adopt some criterion to make sure that one is actually building a collection and not just amassing a disorganized accumulation.
Of course each is entirely free to do as he/she chooses, but this is what I decided to do almost at the very beginning of my more than thirty years of papal-coin collecting.
First of all I decided to limit myself to silver coins. I skipped gold, for I am neither a Midas nor a Croesus. Being, nonetheless, a frightful snob, I decided to snub billon and copper.
Then I set myself chronological boundaries. Like FF I also decided to avoid pre-983 pieces; they are available alright (quite a few, for example, appeared in very recent Italian and other European auctions and you see one or two occasionally on CNG), but, all in all, they are not exactly easy to come by. So, I start with the SV 1268-1271. I also decided not to collect all subsequent papal coinage but to stop with the SV of 1740 - this for non-numismatic reasons, my interests in papal history really stops at that time (and esthetically papal coinage really declines, in my humble opinion).
Within the time span 1268-1740 I have sought to acquire the largest silver pieces for each issuing authority (popes and SVs) and mint. In practice this has meant collecting grossi/giuli up to the time of Paul III, testoni from Paul III up to Sixtus V, and piastre from Sixtus V on (filling the gap with testoni for popes and SVs who did not issue piastre). Once I arrive at the piastre, though, I do not limit myself with a representative piece for each issuing authority, but try to collect them all. A very few I still do not have, and probably never will, for when it's a matter of great rarities (such as the piastre for Carpentras) they really are quite something price-wise.
Still, I am very fond of my little collection, and love to bore the pants off people by telling them about it. So please be kind and bear with me.  Roll Eyes
Logged
Follibus Fanaticus
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


I love this forum!


« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2006, 11:18:43 am »

RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS

To Response No. 30.

What do I do with the antipopes?

At least 33 men rate the title antipope, starting with Saint [!] Hippolytus [217-235].  Hippolytus was a martyr and his various denunciations of St. Callistus I [16th pope, 222-230]], another martyr are quite blunt.  Hippolytus calls Pope Callistus the modern equivalent of "sleazy real estate dealer."

Only 5 of the 33, or so, antipopes issued coins – all between 1378 and 1429.  The last antipope, Felix V [1439-1449], Amadeus VIII, Count of Savoy, issued as a civil ruler, but never as antipope.  I file my antipopes [I do not own an Alexander V.] between Gregory XII [No. 204], who resigned in 1415, and Martin V [No. 205], elected at Constance in 1417.  Grierson exposed all coins of the antipope Christopher [903-904] as counterfeit.

If one reads contemporary documents, not later French propaganda, one can detect that many thought the Avignon antipopes a big joke.  Robert of Geneva, otherwise known as "The Butcher of Cesena" or the antipope Clement VII, was 2d-cousin to a French king.  The name of his successor in the Avignon line, Peter de Luna, caused the term "lunatic" to enter world languages.  Lunatic meant fool and follower of de Luna.

I do not number my 4 coins of the antipopes.  I believe that a numbering system should be an aid to keeping items in order, not an obsession.  My editor requested a numbering system for the antipopes in my in-progress book.  I told him I thought he was crazy.

To Response 32.

I collect all METALS – gold, silver, billon and copper.  A collector can really economize this way.  For example, a silver grosso of Pius II is a scarce item that costs big bucks.  I know very advanced collectors who do not own one.  HOWEVER, Pius II’s coat of arms appears on the little piccolo, a billon coin.  The copper quattrini of the 16, 17 and 1800’s show papal arms, and these come at a very reasonable price.

Most of my coins are silver.  I own just a few gold coins – I limited myself to one per century.

I avoid MEDALS in all metals, except for Leo’s XI and XIII, Pius X and Benedict XV, the four popes who [since 1300] did not issue coins.  Controversy also surrounds the coin [?] of Benedict XI [1303-1304].  I will probably follow Grierson's opinion, when his volume on northern Italy appears.
Logged

Follibus Fanaticus
Maffeo
Guest
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2006, 03:08:11 pm »

John XXIII is my favourite anti-pope; he sounds like the kind of guy with whom one could have a couple of martinis and he wouldn't be too upset if you walked out on him without asking for his blessing. His Rome mint grosso, the one with the leg, is one of my favourite pieces.
Would it be too much too ask to be anticipated just a clue or two as to Grierson's thoughts on the alleged grosso paparino of Benedict XI?
I have always been intrigued by a little dissonance in Berman n° 167. While the line drawing of the coin has the legend on the obverse:  PP BENEDETV XI, Berman in his description transcribes it: PPBENEDIM.VND. Never being able to get my hands on one, so as to check it for myself...
Logged
Follibus Fanaticus
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


I love this forum!


« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2006, 11:31:44 pm »

Dear Maffeo:

The antipope John XXIII  -- remember there's a real Pope John XXIII who died in 1963 -- was born in Naples with the name Baldassarre Cossa.  Cossa is the everyday Italian word for "leg," as I broke my leg.  A leg appears in the chief of Cossa's coat of arms, which Cossa probably awarded to himself.

Cossa has 11 Muntoni numbers, and No. 11 is a gold ducat from Bologna that shows his full coat of arms.  Cossa is not the first pope to issue a coin with a coat of arms, because he was never pope.  That honor may go to Martin V [1417-1431], but only maybe.  The coin showing Martin's arms, a crowned column, is marked on the reverseROMA CAPUT MUNDI.  That's the usual mark of the Rome city mint, sometimes called the Mint of the Senate, not the papal mint.  So, the first papal coat of arms on coinage was issued for a pope, not by a pope.

Follibus Fanaticus
Logged

Follibus Fanaticus
Follibus Fanaticus
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


I love this forum!


« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2006, 01:22:08 am »

Dear Maffeo [2]:

You need a Muntoni to figure out what goes with the "coin" of the Blessed Benedict XI [1303-1304].  He was beatified by Clement XII in 1736.  Feast:  July 7.

The "Blessed" [See below.] has only one Muntoni number, plus a long footnote in Italian.  The footnote summarizes published works that suggest that the Blessed's one coin may be altered examples of Benedict XII [1334 - 1342], Muntoni 4, a denaro paperino from the Montefiascone mint.

Some suggest that clever people altered the XII of the later Benedict's coin to VND on the Blessed's coin.  VND means undicem, the Latin word for eleven.  I do not know what Grierson's book will say on the subject.

Note on Titles.

Books on Heraldry will define what king, duke, earl and other lifetime titles mean.  Larger works will go into the three tites after death.  The Romans started the practice by awarding the title Divus or Diva, sometimes even to infants -- the Diva Claudia coin issued for Nero's daughter.  Historians sometimes grant a title after death -- hence, Frederick and Catherine the GREAT.

These days, only popes grant the three recognized post mortem titles:

The Venerable.  This generally means that a person is under consideration for one of the two higher titles after death.  The Venerable Bede, English historian, died 735, is the world's most known "venerable," although he has been St. Bede for years.  Feast, May 27.

The Blessed.  This means that an individual got into heaven but is, as yet, unworthy of universal veneration.  For example, an Irish alcoholic, one Matt Talbot {Sp.}, I believe, has achieved beatification.  John-Paul II flat out refused to cannonize him.

Saint.  Saint means "holy" in Latin.  Presently, only the pope can grant this order or title.  The Saint gets a mention in the mass of the day that he or she died. The day is marked in the fasti [Fasti means calander in Latin.] as his or her "feast" day.

Numismatic Papal Saints.  I have met two women who collect coins issued by saints.  Louis IX, King of France and Edward of England were in their collections.  Issuant, cannonized popes [since 1300] are few.  Pius V has been a saint for centuries.  John Paul II cannonized Pius IX.  Both asked me which Pius IX coins to buy.  I told them to buy the younger portraits -- before 1860.

Follibus Fanaticus

Logged

Follibus Fanaticus
Maffeo
Guest
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2006, 03:19:08 am »

Thank you Follibus Fanaticus for your replies.
Actually I've had Muntoni ever since I bought it from Santamaria in the mid-70s, but, as you well know, its four massive vols. are nowhere as handy as Berman to carry around... I believe there are a couple of other handy works on papal coinage in English that I would like to acquire but, despite repeated tries, I've never succeeded in getting them through a bookshop here..
Now, the status of Cossa as pope has never been that clear, even the epitaph on his tomb in the baptistery of Santa Maria del Fiore in Florence describes him as "quondam papa". The matter, for pratical purposes at least - such as listing in the Annuario Pontificio - was only settled by Roncalli when he decided to take the name John XXIII as well.
Another issue I've been trying to find some info. on for years is when the papal mint first introduced machinery. The history of the papal mint has yet to be written, and its various locations in Rome at different times is still far from settled. But, for example, the piastre first produced by Sixtus V,  are they hammered or milled coins? The curvature of the flans of the pieces I have and have handled over the years makes me think they were produced by heavy machinery rather than hammered, but I have never come across any documented discussion of the matter. Any thoughts? Thank you.
Logged
Follibus Fanaticus
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


I love this forum!


« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2006, 01:50:46 pm »

Dear Maffeo:

Cossa held an election at the Council of Pisa in 1410 to elect himself pope.  Was he a pope?  No, because:
1.  Councils of the Church do not elect popes, electors do.  Right now all electors are cardinals, but before the mid-10 hundreds, the Roman Nobility had electors.
2.  The Council of Pisa was not a valid Council of the Church anyway.
Let's say all the ex-judges of the Miss America contest met in Atlantic City and elected a president of the United States?  Would that man be president?  What would the Secret Service say when the new "elected" president knocked at the White House.  They would laugh themselves silly.  Then let's say the "elected" president died and was buried in a local church with the inscription "QUONDAM PRESIDENT."  How many historians would åçplace him among the presidents?  That's about the status of Cossa's claims to be pope.

As far as I know, machinery shows up in midreign for Urban VIII.  He moved the mint out of the Mint of Julius II.  The smaller coins were struck at the Castle San Angelo.  Larger coins were pressed with a water press at the bakery in the Vatican Gardens.  Large silver blanks were baked with the bread.  Then they were struck hot on a water press.  Clever.

Cheers,

Follibus Fanaticus
Logged

Follibus Fanaticus
Maffeo
Guest
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2006, 04:43:50 pm »

If Councils do not elect popes, what about Martin V? I appreciate the analogy (it might have been even more amusing if you had suggested that if all former Miss Americas were to come together to elect a President..., then, at least, it would have been a head-turning body of electors) but does it really fit? Poor Cossa was elected not by the Council of Pisa but by a group of cardinals - electors - most of whom had been created by Papa Correr... and, indeed, he was, at times, recognized as pope by a great chunk of the Church and by most of the great powers.
I loved the part about the baking of the papal pastries, oops, I mean the baking of the papal piastre - reminds me of the English custom of shoving three-penny pieces in Christmas puddings. Seriously though, do you have any reference you could indicate on the issue? I was well aware that machinery was introduced during the pontificate of Maffeo Barberini, one can see it in the technical improvement of his coinage - especially the testoni which go from really roughshod at the beginning of the pontificate to almost perfect at the end. But I still suspect that some kind of machinery might have been used to produce the piastre of Sixtus V - wasn't machinery employed in England for the production of some pieces during Elizabeth I's reign - much longer than Sixtus' pontificate but contemporaneous - which then, for whatever reason, reverted to hammering? Just where was the mint at the time of Julius II? Wasn't a lot of the minting at that time and in the immediately following pontificates simply entrusted to private companies - such as the Fuggers, if I recall correctly, at the time of Leo X or thereabouts?
Thanks a lot!

Logged
Follibus Fanaticus
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


I love this forum!


« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2006, 09:08:59 pm »

Dear Maffeo:

Gregory XII was still pope when the cardinals at the Council of Pisa held an election.  Gregory XII was pope till he died or resigned.  In this case, he resigned in 1415.  He died October 14, 1417.  Martin V was elected November 11, 1417  -- about a month after the former Gregory XII died.

The Council of Constance did not elect Martin V.  A special conclave of 22 cardinals, plus 30 representatives of five "Nations" elected him.  The office was vacant on November 11, 1417.

Political support never made anyone pope.  Take the case of the antipope who called himself Nicholas V from 1328 to 1330.  He even held Rome and was supported by a Holy Roman Emperor. [Beware.  There is a real pope, Nicholas V (1447-1455), who does issue coins.  Antipope Nicholas V issued no known coins.]

Yes I have a reference for the story of Urban VIII's bakery coins.  I have looked and looked and can find nothing on the piastre of Sixtus V.

Rome had two founders, two consuls, and two peaks on its major hill that held temples to two gods, Jupiter Best and Biggest and Juno Moneta.  Christians join this merry fun with two founders of the see, Peter and Paul.

During the "middle ages" Rome, naturally had two mints.  The Senatorial [no senate existed] Mint operated from the church of Santa Maria d'Aracoeli, which sits squarely atop the site of the Temple of Juno MonetaEugenius IV closed the Senatorial Mint about 1443.

The papal mint may have opened in the Church of SS. Sergius and Bacchus in the Forum, when Urban V returned to Rome.  Julius II moved the mint to his new mint building, now the Bank of the Holy Spirit.   Paul III demolished most of the Sergius/Bacchus church about 1536, because it was considered an eyesore next to the Arch of Septimus Severus.  Its worst feature, a bell tower, sat atop the arch!  Last traces of the church were not carted away until 1812.

Cheers,

Follibus Fanaticus


Logged

Follibus Fanaticus
Maffeo
Guest
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2006, 05:20:53 pm »

This Leo XIII fantasy coin brings up the entire issue of papal fakes. Leaving aside contemporary forgeries, I have come across modern fakes of the early "antiquiores" pieces. Then there are quite a few modern restrikes, especially of 19th century scudos. The weirdest are the odd combinations of obverses taken from Pius IX's pre-1860 scuods with the reverses of post-1860 5 lire pieces... But, and this is where I hope you might bombard me with your impressive erudition, FF, I haven't seen much in the way of modern fakes of papal pieces from the 14th through to the 18th centuries, have you come across any?
By the way, I'm still hoping that you might allow yourself to indulge in a burst of generosity and actually share the reference you have to the bakery-minting.
Take care.
Logged
Follibus Fanaticus
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


I love this forum!


« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2006, 09:07:09 pm »

Dear Maffeo:

You can only get so far with papal numismatic research in English.  The story of Urban VIII's bakery and how he stole the secret of the water press from the Germans can be read in several Italian books.  Learn Italian and read them for yourself or wait for the footnotes in my book.  Learning Italian has its rewards.

For example, I found that the term baiocco [old It. byoccio, and other spellings] probably meant "little brown coin"[baio=brown].  The reference, an Italian version of the OED, nailed first printed use to a saying of Julius II, which contains not one but two first printed uses of an Italian word.  In combination, the two etymological firsts form the most screamingly funny obscene phrase I have ever read about numismatics.  Julius was justly revered for his ability to turn the air blue.  I sadly cut the quote from my first book.  I might include it in 6-point type in the second to encourage the reading of footnotes. [Private requests only and not on Forum.]

Italian will get you half way there; you'll need Latin to get all the information.  I recommend you read first: Maria Luisa Ambrosini.  The Secret Archives of the Vatican.  Barnes & Noble, New York, 1966. 366 pages.

Secret here means "of the secretary."  It is the papal correspondence file.  Some letters date back to the three Ottos, but the first full volume covers years 1073 - 1085.  Much survives after 1380.  Virtually all letters, official and private, plus reports, such as those from the mint survive.  For example, one hard working Italian extracted mint production records from 1600 to about 1795.  Has Krauss Publications bothered to look these up, and include them in their telephone books?  Not that I can see.

The secretary's library has sub-libraries, such as the entire surviving records of the Avignon antipopes.

Most of the Secret Archive material is in Latin, Europe’s official diplomatic language till close to 1700, when French took over.

Much of the material has been published, since Leo XIII opened the library to scholars.  Read Ambrosini's book and find out what's available.

Cheers,

Follibus Fanaticus
Logged

Follibus Fanaticus
Follibus Fanaticus
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


I love this forum!


« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2006, 12:03:30 pm »

Reply 31 Continued

If you manage to collect the 176 coins suggested in "Reply 31," what do you do then?

First:  You will probably never get all 176 coins.  I have been collecting since 1981, but I do not have any coins of Benedict XI [If one exists.], Pius III or Innocent IX.  I do not have a portrait of Alexander VI.  I do not expect to obtain any of the above.  What do you do next?

You can devote yourself to upgrading the coins that you do have and/or you can branch out within the series.  For example Nicholas V in 1450 issued the first coin to commemorate a Holy Year.  This may well have been the first commemorative coins since the fall of the Roman Empire. [No fair counting consular stars on late Roman and Byzantine coins.  The consulship counts as a date, not a commemoration  -- with me at least.]

Nicholas V marked coins ANNO IVBILEI, a Latin ablative that means "during the Jubilee Year."  Romans, ancient and Renaissance were creatures of habit.  Once they did something, they continued it.  Sure enough, in 1475, Sixtus IV issues Holy Year coins.    Holy Year coins were issued, like clockwork, ever 25 years.  Check Y 329 & 330 in Krause.  Find coins of the Vatican City marked AN IVB MM.  MM = 2000 in Roman numerals.

Councils of the Church come in for issues of coins, which commemorate Constance, Lateran II, Trent, and Vatican II.  What about Vatican I in 1870?  No coins!  The troops of Victor Emanuel II captured Rome, shut down the council, and chased Pius IX, now canonized, into the VaticanVatican I did not have time to do much of anything, much less issue coins.   NOTE: The Council of Constance issues are sede vacante issues of 1415 – 1417 from Rome and Avignon.  Some might not consider them as council coins.

The coin issued for Lateran II is a silver quarter ducat of Leo X.  ObverseBust of Leo X, left; Rev. Christ blesses the Apostles.  Good luck even finding one of these.  For the epoch, this is a huge silver coin, obviously made to publicize the council.

The Church has never been shy about commemorating victory.  For example, Pius V commemorated a 1571 navel victory at Lepanto under his banner and the command of Don Juan of Austria, Philip II’s bastard brother.  Don Juan killed 25,000 Turks, captured thousands more, and freed more than 12,000 Christian galley slaves.  He captured 180 Turkish galleys, 117 large guns and 274 small guns.  The Turks lost ships, but more importantly the men to row them.  ["The Galleys at Lepanto" by Jack Beeching is a really good read.]

Look no farther than Y 226 in Krause for a modern counterpart.  A 1990 silver 1000 lire’s reverse shows John Paul II, advancing left, with a long cross that emits rays that topple barbed wire fences.  This commemorates the fall of Communism.

Cheers,

Follibus Fanaticus
 


Logged

Follibus Fanaticus
Follibus Fanaticus
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


I love this forum!


« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2006, 01:26:58 pm »

Reply to No. 31, 2d Part

What other categories of papal coins can a collector find?

IMMITATIONS OF ANCIENT ROMAN COINS.

The popes mint at Rome.  They had a tradition of coinage to imitate, but the tradition enters the papal coinage later than expected.  Let’s look at two numismatically aware popes.

Innocent VIII [1484-1492] collected coins.  None of his 34 Muntoni numbers show any real traces of copying ancient coins.  Innocent did, however, cast medals that look Roman.  One coin from the Aquila mint looks like a semis of Augustus [RIC 227]; however, Innocent did not mint this coin – the Barons at Aquila minted it in his name.

Marcellus II [1555] founded the Vatican Museum’s coin collection.  He served as Vatican Librarian for years before his short reign.  His coinage shows no trace of following the ancient Romans.

I would start the real tradition of imitating the ancients to Julius III [1550 – 1555].  One coin shows a seated Roma with an altered quote from Virgil’s "Aeneid": OMNIA TVTA VIDES [Book 1, verse 583]. Julius also issued a double carlino that shows a seated female figure labeled CONCORDIAMuntoni [9] calls her "Abundance."  Whoever she is, she demonstrates the ancient Roman habit of personification.

After Julius, imitation ceased for a time.  Gregory XIII minted Faith [FIDES] and Justice with her scales.  Sixtus V [1585 – 1590] mints the personification FELSINA from Bologna.  Felsina was an Etruscan name for the area around Bologna.

Clement XI [1700 – 1721] holds the number one place, in my opinion, for beautiful coins in the ancient Roman tradition.  He issued coins that show a standing CARITAS [Charity] holding a child with two children to each side.  The coin quotes various Roman coins that show empresses holding children with children to various sides.  I think it closely resembles some issues, in bronze, of Faustina, Younger, as Augusta under Marcus Aurelius.

Clement issued a coin showing the Three Graces standing in the square on the Capitoline Hill.  This commemorates the opening of a museum, the Pio Clementino, which remains open to the public.  It contains an ancient statue called "The Dying Gaul," which reminds Americans of a downed football player with the wind knocked out of him.  Clement XI also issued a coin showing the Pantheon, shown on no ancient Roman coin.  This brings up architectural types.

Leo X issued a coin showing Bramante’s design for a new St. Peter’s.  This is not a Roman type, but it might be in the Roman tradition of advertising buildings.  New St. Peter’s appears on many coins.  The pope’s cathedral, St. John Lateran, appears only on gold of Clement VIII.

Civic good works also find a place on papal coinage. Coins of Clement XII [1730 – 1740] show a seated goddess holding a wheel and reads: COMMODITAS VIARVM REDUX ["A return {to} comfort {of} on the roads"]. This copies a denarius of Trajan [RIC 315] that reads FORT[una] REDVX.  Clement XII is celebrating road repair.

Cheers,

Follibus Fanaticus
Logged

Follibus Fanaticus
Maffeo
Guest
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2006, 06:51:48 am »

What about the portrait coins of Sixtus IV? Couldn't one say that these pieces - the double grosso and the grosso - with the first realistic papal portraits ever, are clearly imitative? Could any pope ever look more Roman-emperor-like, as far as it's possible for a pope to do so, as the first papa Della Rovere does on these pieces?
Logged
Follibus Fanaticus
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


I love this forum!


« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2006, 01:17:49 am »

A PAPAL ARMORIAL DISPLAY AT A REASONABLE PRICE

MUNTONI’S "Coins of the Popes and the Papal States" [Le Monete dei Papi e degli Stati Pontifici] illustrates 270 coats of arms from coins issued between the days of John XXII [1316-34] and Paul VI [1963-78].  Since 1978, three popes and two cardinal chamberlains have placed their arms on coins, so 273 coats of arms appear on papal coins.  Martin V’s arms  [1417-31] are the first arms of a pope to appear.  Previous armorial display on papal coins belonged to legates, governors and antipopes.

Popes who issued coins since Martin IV number 55, and all show arms on their coins.  Most Chamberlains of the Church since 1521 have issued election [sede vacante] coins for roughly 40 coats of arms on election coins, but we have arrived at one of the great gray areas in counting papal coats of arms.  Some chamberlains run more than one election.  For example, Cardinal Annibale Albani issued coins for the elections of 1721, 1724, 1730, and1740.  Further complicating our count: Annabale Albani was the nephew of Pope Innocent XII, and he uses the same coat of arms as his uncle.

Mint cities, such as Bologna and Ferrara, also have their coats of arms on coins.  That raises the count

To get a "complete" collection of coats of arms on papal coins can involve a numismatic game of mix and match [substitute].  The game can be played to the collector’s advantage, because it can reduce the cost of a collection.

Match [substitute a sometimes distant relative].  The coin with Martin V’s coat of arms is scarce.  The arms show a column within the shield.  Colonna means column in Italian, and the Colonnas, Martin’s family, owned the Column of Marcus Aurelius in Rome.  Substitute!  In 1758, the next election after the death of the long-lived Cardinal Albani, Cardinal Chamberlain Girolomo [Jerome] Colonna ran the election, and he issued five denominations of coin with the same coat of arms: Column within shield.  The silver grosso is reasonably priced.  Some coins of Martin V without the coat of arms are priced reasonably.

Mix [get a related image].  Some small coins just show the devices [images] from a coat of arms, but no shield.  Some images are called badges.  Coins of Nicholas V [1447-55] show crossed keys, his coat of arms as pope.  Coins of Calixtus III [1455-58] show the Borja bull [bo = ox, upgraded to a bull on the Borja coat].

Mix and Match.  Leo XI [1605] ruled only 28 days.  Although he issued on coins, his name was Alesandro de’ Medici and he used the same coat of arms as three other popes of that name. 

Coats of arms show up regularly on small coins.  For example, small billon piccolos of Pius II have his coat of arms, but cost one-tenth as much as a silver grosso.  [Piccolo is the everyday Italian word for "little," and is pronounced like the name of the band instrument {Italian: piccolo flauto = little flute}.  Piccolo denaro means "little penny."

Later, Julius II changed the smallest Roman coin to a quattrino.  Till 1590, quattrinos are billon; afterwards [last issue 1854, Pius IX] they are copper.  Mostly, they show the coat of arms of the reigning pope.  A few show the arms of the mint city.  [I bought an absolutely UNC 1854 quattrino for $8.]

Collecting papal coins need not be expensive,

Follibus Fanaticus


Logged

Follibus Fanaticus
Follibus Fanaticus
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


I love this forum!


« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2006, 06:57:14 am »

PRESS RELEASE [Baltimore Coin show, The Sun, The Catholic Review {Baltimore}]

LOYOLA GRAD TO TALK ON PAPAL COINS
John Carlin Ryan, a graduate of both Loyola High School and College [B.A., English 1963], talk about coins of the popes  on March 18 at the Baltimore Coin and Currency Convention.  The convention, March 17 –19 at the Baltimore Convention Center, Charles and Pratt Streets, Inner Harbor [1 West Pratt St.] will fill Halls A, B and C.  Admission is free.  Over 1,000 national and international coin and currency dealers will buy and sell coins made from the Eighth Century B.C. to the present.

Ryan, author of "A Handbook of Papal Coins," calls his talk "Coins of the Popes, 657 to the Present."  The first pope to issue a coin was Vitalian [657-672], the 76th pope.  The present pope, the 264th pope, still issues coins from Vatican City.

 The talk will cover: 1. Popes with [mostly] Emperors, 657 – 983;  2.  The Papal States, 1268 – 1870; 3.  Vatican City, 1929 – 2006.  John hopes to exhibit the first papal coin he ever owned, a 100 lire of Paul VI.  He got it from a change machine in Rome’s subway system [Termini Station].  It came with two 100-lire coins from San Marino and seven Italian 100 lire.

The talk will take place from 2 p.m. to 3 p.m. in room 301 at a meeting of The Swiss Guard, a club that looks at papal, Italian and French coins. The lecture will last one hour.  That will cover papal coins at a bit above 22 years per minute.  Ryan notes that of the 72 popes since 1300, only four failed to issue coins.

-end- [Follibus Fanaticus & Captain FitzBattleaxe]


Logged

Follibus Fanaticus
Follibus Fanaticus
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


I love this forum!


« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2006, 09:15:46 am »

on 03/10/06 2:02 PM, a collector at [e-mail address] wrote:

[Follibus],

Please [view offering from e-Bay].

---Offering follows [edited].
 
Gold Vatican Scudo 1534 -1549 Sovereign papal Coin
Item number: --- Bidder or seller of this item? Sign in

Vatican 1534 - 1549 Sudo D'Or     LARGE COIN    Valued at 900.00 to 1100.00    Rare

Papal Paolo III

Instrumetal in commissining Michalangelo to paint the Sistine Chapel

Also Instrumental in personally Conducting battles on the Italian Pininsula


Gold Vatican Scudo 1534 -1549 Sovereign papal Coin Item title: Gold Vatican Scudo 1534 -1549 Sovereign papal Coin Current bid: US $103.51 Your maximum bid: US $
(Enter US $106.01 or more) ">  You will confirm in the next step.
eBay automatically bids on your behalf up to your maximum bid.
Seller assumes all responsibility for listing this item.

---End advertisement---

I advised:

I looked up the coin in Muntoni.  The photo on e-Bay shows no reverse.  It is a floral cross.  Why no photo of the reverse? Is there a big solder spot in the center from an old mount?  Low ball this bid.

I comment further to The Papal Corner:

1.  This coin is not rare, but it is desirable.

2.  It was not issued by "The Vatican," because Vatican City did not exist till 1929.  It was issued by The Papal States, which ceased to exist in 1870.

3.  When listing a coin "valued at $900 to $1,000," seller might think of showing the reverse.

4.  Seller needs a new art history book.  Julius II commissioned Micaelangelo to paint the Sistine Chapel in the early 1500's.  Paul III rehired Michaelangelo to paint the back wall in 1536, a picture [large] known as the "Last Judgment," finished in 1541.  Another mix-up with Julius II -- Julius was a general before his election as pope, and he did lead armies in the field as pope.  He won some, lost some, but he did kick the French out of Italy.  That is why the cardinals elected him.

Paul III was, at best, an armchair general, although he sprang from a military family.

Cheers,

Follibus Fanaticus




Logged

Follibus Fanaticus
Follibus Fanaticus
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


I love this forum!


« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2006, 09:02:51 am »

TALK ON PAPAL COINS AT WASHINGTON NUMISMATIC SOCIETY

John Carlin Ryan will speak to the Washington Numismatic Society [WNS] on: Papal Coins, 657 to Date.  It will cover: 1. Popes with [mostly] Emperors, 657 – 983; 2.  The Papal States, 1268 – 1870; 3.  Vatican City, 1929 – 2006.  John hopes to exhibit the first papal coin he ever owned, a 100 lire of Paul VI.  He got it from a change machine in Rome’s subway system [Termini Station].  It came with two 100-lire coins from San Marino and seven Italian 100 lire.

This will be the same talk as given at the Baltimore Coin Show on Saturday, March 18.  {Ryan and Allen Berman were in the same room for the Baltimore lecture.  See review {to come} under Swiss guard}].

THE TALK WILL TAKE PLACE ON TUESDAY, MARCH 21.

WNS will meet for the talk at 7:30 p.m. at The Community of Christ Church, 3526 Massachusetts Avenue, NW, Washington DC.  This is a little over a block north of the U.S. Naval Observatory, also known as the Vice-president’s House on Mass. Ave.  The church faces Mass. Ave. from the west side of the avenue, the same side as the observatory.

However, parking and the entrance to the meeting room are in the rear of the church, which lies on a triangle shaped block bounded by Mass. Ave. 35th Place and Edmunds Street.

Going south on Mass Ave., pass Wisconsin Avenue, 36th Place, 36th Street, then turn right into 35th Place.  Park on 35th Place, which lies between Fulton and Edmunds Streets.  [This is the middle of the second alphabet.]

Going north on Mass Ave., turn left into where Fulton Street and 35th Place meet at the point of the triangle. [Remember the block is triangular.].  This can be thought of as almost a U-turn.  Finding the church’s back entrance from can be tricky.  It lies in the middle of the block.  Park, walk down the alley, find the entrance, go down the steps inside.

Follibus Fanaticus


Logged

Follibus Fanaticus
Follibus Fanaticus
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


I love this forum!


« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2006, 08:30:53 am »

Why Buy a Serafini

I just received a four volume copy of Count Camillo Serafini’s "Le Monete e Le Bolle Plumbee Pontifici del Medagliere Vaticino  [The Papal Coins and Lead Seals [of] in the Vatican Collection] Milan, 1910-28.  Mine is a paperbound Forni reprint that is undated but [I take it] long out of print.  Why buy this:

1. The Plates.  Let’s look at just one coin, the Gregory XIII testone that shows the Nativity on its reverse [Ser. 82 – 109], Muntoni  [35 – 36].  {LETAMINI * - * GENTES/ in ex. ROMA.}  Obverses show either a portrait of Gregory XIII or his coat of arms.

Serafini shows three examples in the plates.  All are pierced.  The two coins Muntoni shows are pierced, and they are probably two of the coins Serafini used.  Given that the Vatican collection alone has 27 examples, this is not a rare coin.  What’s hard to find is a nice unpierced example – even the Vatican did not have one to use as a plate.

What does this tell us?  1.  Collectors ignored testoni during the 1500’s.  They collected gold and crowns.  2.  Jewelers who quickly turned the attractive coins into medals to be worn must have grabbed up the bulk of the Nativity issue.

2. The variants in Serafini.  Serafini’s 27 examples exhibit every spelling mistake known to man or beast, especially oxen and asses.  Gregory is Rome’s ONT MAX  and OONT MAX, and he’s GREIGORIVSVS and GRORIVS.  He’s also numbered XIII, X.III and XIXI.  It looks like this was a huge issue struck in a hurry for tourists, something still known today.

In other words---an EF with a hole is not rare; a VG without a hole is not rare.  Now, show me an EF without a hole.  I’ve never seen one.  I called a fellow collector and said:  "All the Gregory Thirteen Nativity coins in Serafini’s plates are pierced."  He was unhappy, because he had passed on an unpierced VF+.

Follibus Fanaticus
Logged

Follibus Fanaticus
Pabst Geschichte
Praetorian
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 88


Vita est quoque brevis bibere vilis cervesia.


« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2009, 04:32:32 pm »

This group still active?  Looks like the last posting was 3 years ago...I only discovered this board myself last week.

Foiblius...any timetable for your book being published? 

Some interesting things related to Papal-history and whatnot in the last couple of years...a fun book is Popes And The Tale Of Their Names, by Anura Guruge, which is available on Amazon.  He also operates a website http://www.popes-and-papacy.com/.  The guy is obsessed with Papal trivia, and his book is a fun read.

For example, he discusses why virtually everyone who lists the popes numerically comes out with a different number by the time the get to Benedict XVI, which our moderator here has touched on in previous posts, depending on whether you count the "first" Stephen II as pope, and whether you count Benedict IX once or three times (like the way Grover Cleveland is reckoned as both the 22nd and 24th President of the US).

Anyway, while his book has nothing to do with numismatics, but is still a fun read for $12.
Logged

Meus consultum vobis est ut salus imbibo graviter.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 ... 13 Go Up Print 
FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Medieval, Islamic and Crusader Coins (Moderators: AlexB, quadrans)  |  Topic: The Papal Corner « previous next »
Jump to:  

Recent Price Reductions in Forum's Shop


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 4.886 seconds with 71 queries.