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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Medieval, Islamic and Crusader Coins (Moderators: AlexB, quadrans)  |  Topic: The Papal Corner 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: The Papal Corner  (Read 111060 times)
stlnats
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« Reply #225 on: March 03, 2013, 07:26:14 pm »

With a new pope in the offing, along with the associated coins, medals and whatnot, I've been rummaging thru my medals and have a question that perhaps someone can help me with.  Attached is a scan of a 2002 60mm gilt brass medal entitled "Omaggio a Leonardo" in the typical Vatican case and insert.  My records indicate examples from 2001 thru 2005, each portraying an example of a different artist's work.  The designs were also used in the 40 mm silver medals of subsequent years' proof sets (eg this was in the 2003 set).  The insert indicates there were only 5000 of these issued, so they are somewhat more scarce than the silvers of similar design.    

These are interesting designs, big, heavy and fun to handle and I think most of mine came off ebay fairly inexpensively some time ago so no issue there.  But the question I have is: was there a specific reason - beyond having something else to sell to collectors - for the issue of these big medals? I'm assuming they're considered an extraordinary issue.  I'm also curious if there was a reason the  designs were reused on the silver medals.  Finally I think they have a dual dates, such as 1929 - 2002 on this one.  I know 1929 was the establishment of VC, but is something else going on here? 

Thanks!
 Grin

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Pabst Geschichte
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« Reply #226 on: March 04, 2013, 01:13:56 pm »

It may have been more to justify the hefty expense of the proof sets by including these sterling silver medals.  I mean, why commemorate the 73rd anniversary of the Vatican City State?  It's not exactly a milestone...

In any case, now these medals have been replaced by a sterling silver € 20 commemorative coin, starting with the 2012 proof set.  Again, not sure why they decided to dump the medal for the smaller coin.
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stlnats
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« Reply #227 on: March 04, 2013, 08:37:28 pm »

Frankly I'm good with them dropping the medal in 2012 and hope they continue with coins vs medal for the new pope.  Frankly the only reason I bought the proofs at all was to get the silver medals which are fairly nice.   And I only cherry pick amongst the e 5 and 10 if the design is appealing.  But what I'm not sure about is why they issued the big gilt brass medals separately.  Ought to be some rationale...maybe?

 Grin
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stlnats
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« Reply #228 on: March 06, 2013, 06:53:44 pm »

Not sure of the level of interest here, but a member of the Collectors' Universe site posted a pic of likely designs for the upcoming Sede €2.  Here's the link:

http://www.numisbrazilis.blogspot.com.br/2013/03/sede-vacante-mmxiii.html

I also came across the news briefing that Joe cited last week:  looks like there'll be a €2 in the "circulating" medal, a €5 in silver, and a tiny €10 in gold.  I think that will be the first gold SV for Vatican City and the first "papal" Sede gold coin since 1846.  As I read it, the precious metal issues will follow the design of the silver coin in 2005. Its interestng that the announcement unabashedly admits that the latter two coins are NCLT issues and not legal tender outside of VC due to euro rules.  At any rate, here's the relevant sections of the news release:


Stamps And Coins Of The Sede Vacante
Vatican City, 1 March 2013 (VIS) -

...

Regarding coins, a €2.00 one commemorating the Sede Vacante will be issued. It is the only one that will be circulated seeing that, according to the European convention with the Vatican City State, only one coin is allowed to be issued per year, with an extra one permitted in the case of a Sede Vacante. There will, therefore, be two coins in 2013: one for the Sede Vacante and the other, to be issued in April, with an image of Benedict XVI.

The Sede Vacante coin, 125,000 of which will be minted, bears the emblem of the Cardinal camerlengo with the pavilion of the Apostolic Camera.

There will also be 10,000 silver €5.00 coins minted for the Sede Vacante that will have a dove of the Holy Spirit and the words "Veni Sancte Spiritus" on one side and the emblem of the Cardinal camerlengo with the pavilion of the Apostolic Camera and the phrase "Sede Vacante 2013" on the other. Likewise, 5,000 gold €10.00 coins will be minted. This will be a very small coin (13.85mm in size and 3g in weight) and will have the same images and writing as the silver coin.

The €5.00 and €10.00 coins are collectibles and, theoretically, can only be used within the Vatican. They are not legal tender outside of the Vatican.

What fun!
 Grin
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stlnats
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« Reply #229 on: April 06, 2013, 11:46:59 am »

Well, after the better part of two months, I finally found and entered the last "Melius Est Dare Quam Accipere" testone into my gallery (Muntoni 72).  Its always like a scavenger hunt when something gets misplaced at the bank; guess I need to start pruning the deadwood (ie collections that were started but never went, nor are likely to go, very far).  Actively looking for more varieties of course but I think these 25 represent a reasonable cross section of the wide range of varieties used for the same basic coin type.  Just gotta love them baroques! 

Pulled a few other favorite baroque/late 17th century pieces that'll go up in a new subgallery as soon as I get decent images to share.

Comments, etc are welcome.  Thanks for looking!

      Grin
 
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silvernut
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« Reply #230 on: April 06, 2013, 01:37:04 pm »

I must admit I never realized such a series existed, and you got me interested in it! Your gallery is superb, I'm envious! I'll be interested to know if you find still new varieties. If I ever see one, I'll let you know. I'm currently centered in piastre and my ongoing interest in bronze medals, so this series will have to wait a few years...

Regards,
Ignasi

 
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« Reply #231 on: April 06, 2013, 01:58:47 pm »

Thanks Ignasi for the kind words.  I've been doing these for a while and picked up 2 unusual varieties in an auction early this year and maybe a couple last year.  I tend to be a "to the center of the earth" type of collector, looking for varieties in a fairly narrow scope and this series lets me get it "out of my system."  I like the piastres and medals as well, but tend to pick off interesting or historical types than focus on all the varieties.  And frankly there's been so much new reference material over the last several years I'm still often playing catch up to figure out exactly what I have! 


 Grin

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Pabst Geschichte
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« Reply #232 on: April 06, 2013, 03:48:00 pm »

Excellent series of Testoni!  Great photos!
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« Reply #233 on: April 07, 2013, 03:06:11 am »

I'm currently centered in piastre and my ongoing interest in bronze medals...

 


I thought I'd just as well show my two latest medals. I usually don't buy post-18th century, but I recently put a bid on three architectural types of Pius IX, done by Bianchi, and finally got these two. I just love the depth the artist achieves in a shallow piece of bronze! It's almost inviting you to wander in!

The first one (PAP-070) shows the interior of the Sixtine chapel at Santa Maria Maggiore; the second (PAP-071) that of the Basilica of San Lorenzo in Rome.

Regards,
Ignasi
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stlnats
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« Reply #234 on: April 07, 2013, 08:43:29 am »

Nice annuals Ignasi.  I assume these are the 44 mm size.  There are also several of the architectural types in a much larger size, 82 mm.  I have two of them, a silver (in the bank) and a rough but still very impressive AE of S. Pauls outside the walls.  As you see the AE is kinda rough, it was literally pulled from a dealer's junk box years ago for all of USD 9.  Despite its tough life before I got it, the AE is very impressive in hand.  The obverses of these "heavies" are remarkably dull and empty looking but the die cutter/designer deftly used the medal's 6 mm thickness to provide incredible depth of field on the reverse.  As you say, they invite you to come inside.  

The medal is rather dark (much more brown than red) so I tinkered, not especially well admittedly, with the color of the image to give a better sense of the reverse.   

 Grin        
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silvernut
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« Reply #235 on: April 08, 2013, 04:26:27 am »

Superb for 9 USD!!! It's a wonderful medal, that I hadn't seen so far. I find that Pius IX has some interesting types.

Yes, mine are the smaller sized ones.

Regards,
Ignasi


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Iosephus
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« Reply #236 on: April 08, 2013, 02:45:46 pm »

Nice medals!  Every time I see images of these architectural types, it tempts me to want to collect these "later" (19th century) medals.
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Joe
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« Reply #237 on: May 29, 2013, 07:36:08 am »

Added another testone to my gallery today.  Came from a recent auction; was outbid on a beautiful M 82 (obverse with a 3/4 view of the arms)  in exceptional condition that I really wanted but this is an OK consolation prize, I guess.  

 Grin
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Pabst Geschichte
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« Reply #238 on: May 29, 2013, 07:44:56 am »

beautiful piece!
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stlnats
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« Reply #239 on: May 29, 2013, 07:47:38 am »

TY Papst!

 Grin
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Iosephus
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« Reply #240 on: May 31, 2013, 10:28:39 am »

Nice addition!  Too bad you missed out on the other one, it looked like it had some nice color to it on the obverse.
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Joe
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« Reply #241 on: June 09, 2013, 03:57:19 am »

Sorry I've been absent for a while... Very nice testone, stlnats! I do look for this series now when browsing through papal coins at auctions.

I have recently acquired a few nice items relevant to this thread. The first is a sede vacante piastra that I bought at auction for what I thought was a decent price. It's not in perfect condition, but I like it nonetheless.

Berman 2330
Canopy and crossed keys over shield.
SEDE VACANTE MDCC
NON VOS RELINQVAM ORPHANOS / ANNO IVBIL in exergue
Radiant dove above clouds.
Rome, year 1700.

The second that I want to show is a bronze medal with a curious feature on the rim: the dotted line seems to have come loose! And it indeed has; if I tried to push it back, it would break. Anyway, the medal is a nice restrike of a Sixtus V medal depicting a very nice rendering of St. Peter's, by the artist Nicolò de Bonis.

Regards,
Ignasi

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stlnats
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« Reply #242 on: June 09, 2013, 10:57:40 pm »

Interesting items Ignasi.  I like the coins of 1700 in that you get a twofer: both a SV and a jubilee year commem.  Your's is a real honey.

I'm not quite sure what to make of the medal except that its an exciting find.   It's late and I could only do a quick scan of CNORP and didn't see anything like it.  Maybe a partial double strike; the original beads are a bit squashed but the letters look crisp and there's nothing I can see on the reverse.  Whatever it is, I like it!  

Congrats on both.

 Grin
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silvernut
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« Reply #243 on: June 10, 2013, 03:42:24 am »

Thanks for your comments. It is not a double strike, as far as I can see. I think there's nothing more (or less!) to it than the fact that the dotted line has indeed detached itself (maybe because of a blow) at that point but has miraculously remained attached to the rest of the dots.

Regards,
Ignasi
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Iosephus
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« Reply #244 on: June 10, 2013, 07:07:23 am »

A couple of nice items, Ignasi!  That medal certainly is interesting with the loose beaded border; I've never heard of anything like it.
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Joe
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« Reply #245 on: June 10, 2013, 07:26:58 am »

duplicate removed
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stlnats
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« Reply #246 on: June 10, 2013, 08:13:50 am »

Wow, I didn't realize you were being literal!  In my defense it was late when I saw your post and I'd had a couple of adult beverages over dinner with a lovely friend.  At any rate, very odd indeed, but still quite interesting.  What fun!

 Grin
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Pabst Geschichte
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« Reply #247 on: June 27, 2013, 06:58:13 am »

1849-R  ½ Baiocco

The 1849-R AN•IIII is probably the most common coin in the whole Papal States series (I guess maybe the 1865-R AN•XX 20 Baiocchi is a close second).  On almost any day you can look on eBay and find several for sale.  

What is far less common--you can go for a year or more and not see one--is AN•IIII's scarce sister, the ANNO IV.  I saw this one last week and snatched it up.

Both the examples shown here are not in particularly good shape (the ANNO IV has a slight bend in the 6 o'clock position on the obverse), but some interesting stuff can be seen.  

Besides the overall wear, both coins exhibit very strong die wear.  In particular, there are lots of small die chips (raised areas on the coin) for the ANNO IV in the region around the regnal date), and in the case of the AN IIII, the reverse die in particular had a lot of cracks and clash marks, and was probably very near to failure when this piece was struck.

If you look carefully, on the AN IIII, there is a small dot that appears within the Roman numeral, making it almost look like AN •II•II.  From the pictures I've seen on eBay and elsewhere, this feature seems pretty common.

The ANNO IV, amid all the die deterioration, appears to have traces of an additional Roman numeral I to the right of the IV, so this may be a re-engraved AN•II or AN•III die.  Or it may be that the die wear makes it appear that way...
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« Reply #248 on: June 27, 2013, 08:19:43 am »

Interesting! 

While the 19th century is outside of my primary interest, your discussion makes me want to go and look at my coins of the period more closely.  Of course  Naples/Two Sicilies has a ton of such varieties - and which are quite fun to find - I haven't paid attention to of such varieties for Rome.  Thanks for sharing Pabst!

 Grin

 
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silvernut
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« Reply #249 on: June 27, 2013, 04:36:50 pm »

I agree, very interesting comments. Always nice to learn new things about Papal coinage!

Regards,
Ignasi
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