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stlnats
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« Reply #200 on: January 31, 2013, 09:42:27 am »

Are either of the two "miraculous medals" I displayed (for Pius IX and for Leo XIII) listed in any of the Cusumano-Modesti volumes

My understanding is that the 4 volumes of the Cusumano-Modesti work starts with Pius X and Benedict (volume 1) and runs thru John 23 in volume 4 so they wouldn't be covered there.

I did a quick scan of Martini's Catalogo delle Medaglie.V. Secoli XVIII-XIX, but it doesn't seem to cover these altho there are several looped medallions listed.  Except for Martini, Rinaldi and the Annuali volumes, I don't have great coverage of Pius IX or Leo in my library tho.

 

 
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Pabst Geschichte
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« Reply #201 on: January 31, 2013, 09:49:53 am »

Thanks for taking a look...much appreciated!
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« Reply #202 on: January 31, 2013, 11:48:07 am »

My understanding is that the 4 volumes of the Cusumano-Modesti work starts with Pius X and Benedict (volume 1) and runs thru John 23 in volume 4 so they wouldn't be covered there.

Just a minor point, technically Cusumano-Modesti would refer to the following three works:
 - Pio X e Benedetto XV Nella Medaglia (1903-1922), published 1986
 - Pio XI Nella Medaglia (1922-1939), published 1987
 - Pio XII Nella Medaglia (1939-1958), published 1989

The John XXIII book (Giovanni XXII Nella Medaglia (1958-1963)) is only by Modesti (and published over two decades after the previous works!).

Interestingly, it seems that all of these books, plus the CNORP volumes, were limited to only 300 copies each.  It's a little scary to think that the number of serious collectors for papal medals is so small that these excellent volumes (especially CNORP) were limited to such low print runs.


Pabst,

I tried looking up the Pius IX pendant in Franco Bartolotti's "Medaglie e Decorazioni di Pio IX", but was unable to find it there.  I unfortunately do not have any good references for Leo XIII (I actually am not even aware of a good comprehensive reference covering his reign).
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« Reply #203 on: January 31, 2013, 09:35:50 pm »

I thought I'd it'd be fun to try my hand at putting together some galleries highlighting some of the more interesting - to me at least - coins, medals or "subsets" of this thousand year old series.  As a starting point, I began with the interesting series of testoni of Innocent XI that I've posted over the last couple of weeks.  I've got a couple dozen coins in this series and hope to have them all up in the next week or so as time and trips to the bank permit.  I've generally collected with certain objectives in mind, so this is a way to see how close I've come on some of these. 

I'm admittedly spelling impaired and my knowledge base is sketchy at times, so any comments would be welcomed.  Thanks!  

Here's the link   http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18418

What fun!
 Grin
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« Reply #204 on: February 03, 2013, 10:13:17 am »

A very nice group of coins, stlnats!  The one still in its mount was very interesting to see.

I've actually always wondered something about this series of cartouche inscription, and perhaps you might have some insight.  From my understanding, these coins seem to be the first testoni issued with a reformed weight of 9.165 grams, reduced from the 9.596 grams they had been for over a century.  They were also issued for a long time (6 years) during a period of time when designs tended to change frequently.  Was this inscription, which would be so widely present on the new lower weight coins, supposed to help in spurring a quicker acceptance of the lower weight coins?  The phrase "Tis better to give than to receive" seems to me in this case to refer to people receiving less silver than they would be used to by accepting the new coins, and thus giving the difference in silver to the minting authority (aka, the Church).  I'm not sure if this makes any sense (or if what I wrote is even comprehensible), but it's something that's always been in the back of my mind.
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« Reply #205 on: February 04, 2013, 07:43:14 am »

I thought I'd it'd be fun to try my hand at putting together some galleries highlighting some of the more interesting - to me at least - coins, medals or "subsets" of this thousand year old series.  As a starting point, I began with the interesting series of testoni of Innocent XI that I've posted over the last couple of weeks.  I've got a couple dozen coins in this series and hope to have them all up in the next week or so as time and trips to the bank permit.  I've generally collected with certain objectives in mind, so this is a way to see how close I've come on some of these. 

I'm admittedly spelling impaired and my knowledge base is sketchy at times, so any comments would be welcomed.  Thanks!  

Here's the link   http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18418

What fun!
 Grin

This is very interesting, thank you! Thanks for sharing some of your pieces with us. I'm a newcomer to the world of papal numismatics, so I learn with each one of the comments people make here. For the moment, I've restricted myself to medals (mostly the ones listed by Mazio) and, only recently, piastre (of which I've only got two, at the moment). I've been looking for the CNORP volumes that Joseph mentioned, but they are impossible to find. I wish they did a reprint or facsimile edition... So much research and knowledge out of our reach!

Regards,
Ignasi
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« Reply #206 on: February 04, 2013, 09:29:56 am »

Thanks for the positive feedback guys.  Several more to go and I'm still pretty slow at the imaging process so it takes longer than I'd expected.  And, I'm eager to post the jubilee medals to see what they look like as a unit as well. 

The CNORP volumes are tough to find at this point; I was extremely lucky to snag the volumes I did when they came out but my booksellers have been out of stock for some time.  I think I just found a couple of the missing volumes for my set so keep looking!

Interesting thought about the legends on these Joe.  I can see your point, but it would seem to me that was the intent, it would be really "in your face;" sort of we're the government and giving you new coins of lower weight is good for your soul so just accept it.  Of course my perspective colored by being a child of the 60s and having a deep distrust of authority. 

I think that the messaging needs to be seen in the context of that appearing on the other reformed denominations.  Guilios carry an inscription which I think might be understood as supporting public charity.  Frankly I've never quite understood the meaning of Nocet Minus on the grossi and halves.  I think having consistent designsand stable weights over several years - a real break from what had been done before - might have driven the acceptance of these more than the messaging itself, altho I really need to learn more about the reform before opining much more either way.  Interesting idea tho!

 Grin
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« Reply #207 on: February 11, 2013, 07:33:41 am »

You know you're a fanatically obsessive collector when...

After hearing of Benedict's decision to resign this morning, the first thing I thought was what the impact would be on the coins and medal issues this year.  And, if the conclave goes into July - and assuming they follow tradition - there might be 3 or more officials to collect (sede, sede annual and new pope election issue).  And I don't even want to think about if its a repeat of 1978!  Gotta start saving them nickels for all the contingencies!

In 2005, I'd just purchased, but had not yet received, the last medal needed for my "one of each pope" set when JP II died.  I'm starting to take this personal since it just never seems to end...

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« Reply #208 on: February 11, 2013, 08:52:58 am »

Certainly shocking!

A Benedict XVI medal that used to be in my collection:
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« Reply #209 on: February 11, 2013, 09:40:13 am »

In rummaging thru my boxes last week, I ran across this 26mm looped medal of Leo XIII commemorating Pius IX's promulgation of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in 1854.  While I do need to finish off imaging the testoni, I thought this might be a nice fit with the recent conversation about the Miraculous Medal and other small looped items.  And yes, its yet more evidence on a couple of levels that I suffer from the "oh look a shiny thing" syndrome.

I'm not quite sure how this came to me, but assume the gilt ring around the bronze center was sufficiently interesting to justify its acquisition for a few dollars.  The medal is undated and I don't have a reference for it.  Perhaps issued for the 25th aniversary (1879) reinforcing the action of his predecessor, altho that's just a guess.  Being raised as a conservative Protestant, I don't quite understand the whole BVM dogma, but do find the imagery interesting since it was used again and again on coins and medals.

What fun!

 Grin

  

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« Reply #210 on: February 11, 2013, 12:57:16 pm »

Papal resignation history from the Washington Post.  Only Gregory did coins, albeit very scarce, but it's possible to get "restitution" medals from them all.  Looks like I've got a new collecting theme!

Pope Benedict IX, in 1045: At age 33 and about 10 years into his tumultuous term, the Rome-born pope resigned so that he could get married – and to collect some cash from his godfather, also Roman, who paid Benedict IX to step down so that he might replace him, according to British historian Reginald L. Poole’s definitive and much-cited history of the 11th century.
 
Pope Gregory VI, in 1046: The same man who had bribed and replaced his godson ended up leaving the office himself only a year later, according to Poole’s account. The trouble began when Benedict IX failed to secure the bride he’d resigned for, leading him to change his mind and return to the Vatican. Both popes remained in the city, both claiming to rule the Catholic church, for several months. That fall, the increasingly despondent clergy called on the German Emperor Henry III, of the Holy Roman Empire, to invade Rome and remove them both. When Henry III arrived, he treated Gregory VI as the rightful pope but urged him to stand before a council of fellow church leaders. The bishops urged Gregory VI to resign for bribing his way into office. Though the fresh new pope argued that he had done nothing wrong in buying the papacy, he stepped down anyway.
 
Pope Celestine V, in 1294: After only five months in office, the somber Sicilian pope formally decreed that popes now had the right to resign, which he immediately used. according to a report in the Guardian. He wrote, referring to himself in the third person, that he had resigned out of “the desire for humility, for a purer life, for a stainless conscience, the deficiencies of his own physical strength, his ignorance, the perverseness of the people, his longing for the tranquility of his former life.” He became a hermit, but two years later was dragged out of solitude by his successor, who locked him up in an Italian castle. Celestine died 10 months later.

Pope Gregory XII, in 1415: The elderly Venetian had held the office for 10 years, but he was not the only pope. For decades, the Western Schism had left Europe with two popes, one in Rome and one in the French city of Avignon, according to Britannica. The schism’s causes were political rather than theological: the pope had tremendous power over European politics, which had led its kings to become gradually more aggressive in manipulating the church’s leaders. Gregory XII resigned so that a special council in Constance, which is today a German city, could excommunicate the Avignon-based pope and start fresh with a new, single leader of the Catholic church.


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Pabst Geschichte
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« Reply #211 on: February 14, 2013, 05:40:15 am »

And there are a few others who resigned even before Benedict IX:

John XVIII abdicated and retired to a monastery in 1009 (this maybe a precedent for Benedict XVI's actions), apparently of his own free will, but may have been "helped along" on his decision by the powerful Roman families of that era.

Silverius abdicated while in exile in Nov. 537 to make way for the Empress Theodora's favorite, Vigilius.  Again, he may have been coerced to abdicate... at any rate, he died (apparently of starvation) a few weeks later.

Pontian, then in exile in Sardinia (along with Hippolytus, the first antipope), knowing that he would almost certainly not return from that notorious "Island of Death" abdicated in Sept. 235 to make room for a successor, so that the Christian community in Rome wouldn't be left leaderless.

Some, otherwise credible, online Catholic services are even suggesting that Clement I likewise resigned in c. 101, but there is no historical evidence to support this whatsoever.
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« Reply #212 on: February 14, 2013, 07:27:08 am »

I'm not sure why WaPo only focused on the latest 4, but it was an easy cut and paste and had some interesting info which seemed quite topical.  Appreciate the adds...Just a few more restoration medals to start looking for!

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« Reply #213 on: February 14, 2013, 08:45:31 am »

One of the things that I find interesting with the Restoration Medals of the 16th - 18th Centuries, is that they are a snapshot of what the thinking was (vis-a-vis who was, and who was not, considered a legitimate pope) for their eras.  There are even medals for a couple of popes that did not exist at all.

Anacletus and Cletus (late First Century) are almost universally considered to be the same person nowadays (Cletus being a diminutive form of the name Anacletus), but that clearly wasn't the case at the time these medals were made, since there are individual medals for both names.  Oh, and there's also Anicetus from about a century later.  He wasn't the same person as Anacletus, but the names are similar.

And then there's Donus II, supposedly from 972, or perhaps 974.  Never existed at all.  Yet again, there are medals for that name as well.

Then there are some that were once listed as a legitimate pope but who are now considered to be an antipope.  Boniface VII (974, 984-985) is one example.  He was taken off the roster in 1904, and is now considered an antipope.  So are the two (anti)popes, Alexander V and (the first) John XXIII, of the Council of Pisa during the Great Western Schism.  They were, for a time, considered legitimate too.   And the Restoration medals exist for them all.

There are probably one or two others....

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« Reply #214 on: February 14, 2013, 10:27:35 am »

is that they are a snapshot of what the thinking was

Great point.  History is writen by the victors/survivors after all. 

Said it before, but the nifty thing about this collecting niche is that over 6 centuries you'll see the same basic design elements reused and reinterpreted reflecting current thinking and aesthetics.  And you get curious designs unthinkable today but of which they were very proud at the time: the very common Huguenot medal of Gregory XIII being the most obvious example. 

What fun!

 Grin   
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« Reply #215 on: February 22, 2013, 06:42:56 am »

Looks like Künker's next auction (which opens on March 18) has 21 high-end Papal coins from the AD 824-955 period.  In addition to the more reasonably-priced Renaissance and later pieces

The early stuff is way out of my own price-range (€2,500 and more) but maybe not for some of you...
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« Reply #216 on: February 23, 2013, 11:53:32 am »

Thanks for the heads up.  

I'd love to add some early papal, but its outside of my primary focus and frankly I still have a bit of a resistance level at US$1k.  While I've certainly spent much more than that on individual pieces in the past, it becomes much less of a fun activity and much more of a financial one at that level;  I'm still primarily doing this series "for fun" and there's plenty for me to browse thru at more "popular prices."  However, looking thru their cat might just inspire me to buy a couple of powerball tickets, just in case.

edited to add:  amazing run of early papal.  thanks again for pointing it out.



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« Reply #217 on: February 24, 2013, 05:17:41 pm »

Hi Pabst,

I just wanted to check, I assume you're referring to a selection of lots in Künker's auction 227 on March 11 (featuring the collection of Edoardo Curti)?  Thanks for pointing them out, as I had skipped looking through that catalogue.  Those coins are outside of my current focus (and price range!), but were very interesting to browse through!
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« Reply #218 on: February 24, 2013, 05:30:20 pm »

yes, that's the one.  March 11.
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« Reply #219 on: February 24, 2013, 06:52:21 pm »

Thanks.  Certainly some nice items.
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Joe
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« Reply #220 on: February 28, 2013, 06:38:04 am »

Here's fun set of medals I picked up on eBay (for $23.50) that illustrate "both" Cletus and Anacletus...

The individual medals are 29.5mm and are between 14g and 14.2g each.  They appear to be gold-plated brass.

They are packaged in a red vinyl flip-envelope with the papal tiara and keys and the words LOMBARDO PAPAL COLLECTION inscribed in gold.   The inside of the envelope is double sided...  the right side has a card that says

LOMBARDO PAPAL COLLECTION
-.-
Sculptor - sculpteur - Scultore
Virginia Astorri
-.-
Engraver - Graveur - Incisore
Orazio Lombardo

and in small letters at the bottom right, "made by Canadian Artistic Dies, Inc."

The medals themselves are housed in a cardboard holder (velour-coated on the obverse)

I'm guessing this is from the late 1950s, though I'm not sure when vinyl came to be commonly used with this sort of packaging.  The medals themselves are in good enough shape, but are suffering from years of exposure to the clear vinyl covering them...the once mirror-like fields are "hazy" and there is some evidence of green spotting (indicating the presence of copper) in some of the medals now.

Anyone have any further information on these?

LATER:  A little more detective-work paid off:  http://www.lombardomint.com/english/about.htm
Doesn't reference these medals directly, but it at least gives a glimpse into the company and engraver that made them...

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« Reply #221 on: March 01, 2013, 04:04:38 pm »

FYI, at today's Vatican press briefing, the issue of Sede Vacante stamps and coins was addressed.  The stamps are available now, while the coins will be available  in "a couple of months".  No specific mention of medals, which will perhaps be available when the coins are.
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« Reply #222 on: March 02, 2013, 09:02:22 am »

In 2005, they issued both a full set of the Euro coins (1 euro cent to 2 Euro) in both uncirculated and proof; and a 5-euro silver piece for the Sede Vacante.   

I remember at that time, the Ufficio Filatelico e Numismatico (or UFN) got into a bit of hot water with the EuroBank because they had already issued the maximum number of designs for the 'circulating' coinage for that year (having already issued a 2005 set for John Paul II).  The € 5 coin, being non-circulating, wasn't a concern, however.

So I wonder what, if any, effect this will have on this year's Sede Vacante coinage. 
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« Reply #223 on: March 03, 2013, 02:10:22 pm »

My latest acquisition:

Bust right, bare-headed, with cope.
GREGORIVS XIII PONT OPT MAXIMVS
AB REGIBVS IAPONIOR PRIMA AS ROMA PONT LEGATIO ET OBEDIENTIA / 1585 in exergue
Legend in five lines below winged putto.
Signed: L·PARM
Artist: Lorenzo Fragni
R.Z. 131; Spink 754

The medal, apart from the rich tones of brown, is unremarkable, as the reverse is just legend. However, as usually happens with these medals, I learnt a bit of history thanks to its purchase. I found out about something I didn't know had happened: the first Japanese embassy to Rome in 1585. Led by Mancio Ito, the Japanese noblemen Miguel Chijiwa, Juliao Nakaura and Martinho Hara, who had converted to catholicism and would later become Jesuit priests, were received by the Pope Gregorius XIII. The voyage took 8 years. What an amazing trip it must have been!

Plus, it made me remember of James Clavell's 'Shogun', a novel I read (and thoroughly enjoyed!) over 20 years ago!

Regards,
Ignasi

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« Reply #224 on: March 03, 2013, 07:08:19 pm »

Pretty medal Ignasi!  And I disagree, I think the medal is quite remarkable given its subject and some of the legend only types are quite a nice change from time to time.  

And one I don't have (rats!)

Congrats!

 Grin
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