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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Authentication, Fakes and Frauds (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Toronto Group 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Toronto Group  (Read 24487 times)
ID1973
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« Reply #100 on: January 28, 2005, 03:34:58 pm »

It is very "interesting" to see how the guy obtained his 20 feedbacks...buying recipes for coffee (0.99$), recipes for donuts( 0.99$), recipes for hotdogs (0.99), cajun recipes (0.99), a picture of a dog (0.50) and two items for 0.02$!!! But the very best is the book "How To Generate 100 Feedback in a week, With resell rights included", the first item he bought...
I would laugh if the money involved, even if it is not mine, was not so much!
It is easy for me to say people should check, really check the seller's feedback before bidding on these rare coins, but truth is that many a novice collector does not know how to discover this kind of tricks...SIGH!
Years ago I too fell for them...At those times, long before I discovered this Forum, I was looking for a Mariniana antoninianus, a Paulina denarius and a Didius Julianus denarius, and I found it on e-bay. They were very "well preserved" and I made an offer on them, thinking I would be certainly outbidded because, of course, "such rare coins would certainly attract many, wealthy bidders". Instead, to my surprise, I won all the three coins.
I don't exactly remember what happened next, but I recall that even before the coins arrived, I began to suspect they might be fake...as I recognized them to be as soon as I got them in my hands. I remember I wrote a complain to the seller and he tried to fool me by telling me he had cleaned those coins himself...
That was a lesson I will never forget and that pushed me to search for ways to educate myself better and to improve my knowledge about coins, style, dies, letters, weights etc.
Nowadays, I cannot say I am good as many of the people on this list, for I still have much to learn, but, at least I know such evident fakes will never fool me again!


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Bluefish
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« Reply #101 on: January 28, 2005, 07:07:48 pm »

Yeah Stregnth, that's the MO alright. Very few feedbacks on totally unrelated material, then WHAM, hey, I just found a whole bunch of really nice, rare, ancient coins!

Fortunately they have been popping up less these days, and Ebay has managed to shut a few of the auctions down, but still.... we've seen them walk away with anywhere from $5000.00 to $8000.00 and up from their one-day private, bidder-protected auctions. Some times, but not often, they will run a 3 day auction.

If nothing else, as you mentioned, the Forvm is able to present a well laid out page of examples of these coins to help educate the public. Although it would be nice if more people knew it were here, I know it has helped quite a few members and guests who have visited our site. I think we will probably have 1000 coins or more in our database by the end of this year. considering that Joe started the concept only about a year or so ago, it is VERY impressive.

The vigilence of our members in spotting, reporting, and posting these coins is really what makes it all work.
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« Reply #102 on: February 19, 2005, 11:20:11 am »

They are at it again. Check out vanityancients

[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
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Peter, London

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ID1973
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« Reply #103 on: February 19, 2005, 12:02:06 pm »

GGGGGRRRRR!!!! Angry

It makes me so angry to see almost all the coins have bids on them, while I have up for sale a bunch of genuine bronzes and there is no way to make the bidding rise! I have an Antoninus Pius dupondius I paid 150,00€ (and it is worth it) which after 5 1/2 days of auction has realized only 11.50$, while this person sells junk and has no problem finding bidders!  Angry Angry Angry
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« Reply #104 on: February 19, 2005, 12:13:08 pm »

Don't get mad, get even! They got shut down last time. I just filed a report to ebay. The more that do the same the better.
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Peter, London

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« Reply #105 on: February 19, 2005, 04:32:11 pm »

It's interesting they claim not to be in Canada but in UK this time, yet their auctions are in US$. Also interesting is their trick to get some feedback: they buy E-books now that cost .69 or .99 and are e-mailed for no shipping costs; you can't get a feedback cheaper! And I feel satisfied: I saw their coins and thought: Whoa, these do look strange, I wouldn't buy them... should I post them here? before I saw this thread. Maybe I'm getting better at spotting fakes. I hope so.

Rupert
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« Reply #106 on: February 21, 2005, 08:52:06 am »

They have been using the ploy of trying to appear as though they are in the UK for about a year now (on and off) and US$ auctions from the UK grab my attention, even though there are some legit ones.
They have used a large number of images from previous incarnations this time. I have added comments accordingly in the matching images on the Fakes Boards.
Regards,
Martin
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« Reply #107 on: February 22, 2005, 09:44:31 am »

They are at it yet again. This time under the name ciceronius33.

They got stopped the time before last, but not the last time, so I urge everyone to file a complaint to ebay.
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Peter, London

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« Reply #108 on: February 22, 2005, 02:29:00 pm »

OK. I have finished posting comments and all the new images to the Fakes boards. There are quite a few new images in this batch including s few that are either the real coins or are very dangerous. They have been posted regardless, as they are being sold by the Toronto Group. Duplicate images have had comments and dates added. If anyone has a reference for the newly aded Galba that would be appreciated. Now we just need to get these guys shut down.

Regards,
Martin
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Loukianos
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« Reply #109 on: February 23, 2005, 12:18:16 am »

1. How do you explain that pictures 1 and 7 (Thasos tet) are the same? This coin is sold on january 29, then on feb 23; do they buy one to the other?
2. I can't find ciceronius33 in ebay listings.
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« Reply #110 on: February 23, 2005, 03:50:25 am »

I checked this morning (10.30 GMT) and ciceronius33 doesn't seem to have any current or PAST listings, so presumably he has been successfully stopped (this time).
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Peter, London

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« Reply #111 on: February 23, 2005, 03:56:23 am »

1. How do you explain that pictures 1 and 7 (Thasos tet) are the same? This coin is sold on january 29, then on feb 23; do they buy one to the other?
They use the same picture (often more than twice) to sell their fakes.  Why take a second picture to sell an identical cast fake?
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« Reply #112 on: February 23, 2005, 09:08:53 am »

There are several people who as well as tracking what these guys are trying to seel, attempt to get them closed down by ebay before they have a chance to sting any unwary buyers. It looks like we managed it this time. Ebay have reporting mechnisms but since the auctions are generally one-day affairs it is sometimes too late to catch them.
As far as the duplicate images are concerned... we are generally trying to avoid posting the same image multiple times in the Fakes Boards but instead try and create a log of the different identities that have used the same image. There are several pictures however that depict the same coin but with different lighting etc. These are being added as they can each indicate more detail on the coin in question. Some are intended to mask the elements that made the coins obviously cast in previous examples.
Regards,
Martin
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mickdale
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« Reply #113 on: February 23, 2005, 11:51:38 pm »

would it be a good idea if somebody emailed the bidders, with their concerns over the suspect authenticity of the coins for sale?
The bidders may not even know about internet sites dealing with forgeries. (i certainly didnt until very recently, or the extent of the problem).
mick dale
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« Reply #114 on: February 24, 2005, 02:18:34 am »

Mick,
Herein lies one major problem. The Toronto Group typically run Private auctions to prevent the bidders identities from being known and hence warned. The only way is to try and get ebay to take them off quickly.
Regards,
Martin
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mickdale
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« Reply #115 on: February 25, 2005, 12:02:11 am »

i know its a longshot, but it seems this person/people are based in Canada and are knowingly making money by deception. Could a purchaser of a fake contact the local police with a view to prosecution? Surely ebay have or can trace details of the conman/conmens location as they will know what computer is being used to submit the listings?
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« Reply #116 on: February 25, 2005, 08:10:02 pm »

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Could a purchaser of a fake contact the local police with a view to prosecution?

Yes, but it would only really be worth it if you lived in Canada. Otherwise you get to deal with all sorts of paperwork, beuracracy etc.  Also, the Toronto Group uses PO Boxes, so an address can't be used to track them down.

Quote
Surely ebay have or can trace details of the conman/conmens location as they will know what computer is being used to submit the listings?


They have credit card numbers, but they're probably all fake or stolen. These people aren't dumb. Mass ISP recording on behalf of eBay would be useless, as there would too many to sift through, and a rotating ISP can be used on some computers.

I've always found that, despite his rantings, a certain ex-member had an interesting theory about the Toronto Group being related to the Big Circle Boy Gang (I think that's what they go by anyways). There's certainly a possibility of a link. Mention that you know how BCBG is getting some funding, I'm sure they'll be quite willing to help you. If you really wanted to, you could try to contact the RCMP organized crime unit:

http://www.rcmp.ca/contact/index_e.htm

Evan
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Jerome Holderman
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« Reply #117 on: April 13, 2005, 05:31:20 am »

i know its a longshot, but it seems this person/people are based in Canada and are knowingly making money by deception. Could a purchaser of a fake contact the local police with a view to prosecution? Surely ebay have or can trace details of the conman/conmens location as they will know what computer is being used to submit the listings?

I tried it when I got stung a couple years back. Basically as Evan said there was a ton of Paperwork etc. and after that was all complete, I basically got the brush off. " Thanks, We'll look into it"  Undecided 
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Basemetal
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« Reply #118 on: December 09, 2005, 10:16:05 pm »

I am sure there is a post on this and if so please redirect me.  How is it that a group sells fake roman coins and reaps a profit.  Volume? Given that most romans sell for, in the general scheme of things not that much, where's the profit?  I buy a fake Valens from such people and:
First, who would try to sell  a Valens at an inflated price which I hope would not sell, or if regular market price then they've ripped me off for $1.25 plus postage?  I'm a newbie but I also know that a "rare" coin has a certian historical look.  The ones I've seen as fakes-the more expensive ones are and have a certian "look" that is not quite right. Very subjective, I know. But I've seen advice to newbies that basically say "Fakes have a certain look about them. When you gain experience you'll spot them".
I feel this to be true even in my embryonic stage of ancient coin collecting.  Ok...you fake 35 Neros. You manage to sell them for say $40.00 apiece.  How much did it cost you to fake them? It had to be some large fraction.  To me falls under the category of "dumb crook". 
"Yep I made almost 200 dollars last month selling fakes.? Why not sell drugs-much higher markup?
Dunno...makes little sense to me.  Why don't they fake Morgan dollars or some such?
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« Reply #119 on: December 09, 2005, 10:43:56 pm »

Also on a philosophical note:
Faking is theft. When you buy a fake coin, it not that much different than if someone came into your house and stole whatever valuables he/she could find.  They took your money by wire fraud didn't they? Do you think that if they had gotten into your house they wouldn't have taken you entire collection and whatever else they could have carted off?  Just because it's electronic doesn't mean it's not home invasion and robbery.
Executive: "Well...his work history checks out ok.  There is that one thing back in the 90's. He did some kind of scam thing about old coins.  Well...we are looking for an accountant. Seems he paid the fine and did community service on that one. And anyway he's a whiz at the computer and knows accounting backward and forward.  He'll make a good addition to our team. Everyone has a wild youth" (job prospect was 35 when he robbed people with fake coin scam)
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« Reply #120 on: December 09, 2005, 11:32:31 pm »

Quote
Ok...you fake 35 Neros. You manage to sell them for say $40.00 apiece.  How much did it cost you to fake them? It had to be some large fraction.  To me falls under the category of "dumb crook". 
"Yep I made almost 200 dollars last month selling fakes.? Why not sell drugs-much higher markup?
 


The problem is they aren't selling Nero denarii or whatever for $40 a pop. They're selling them for $400. In one go they must make over 40k. Anyways, if my theory of their connection to the Big Circle Boys in correct, they do involve themselves in drugs.... and guns etc.

Evan
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Jerome Holderman
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« Reply #121 on: December 14, 2005, 04:19:24 am »

Also the molds they use are obviously re-useable since we see the same fakes over and over. So you have the labor and expense of a single mold for each type, after that you are talking about the cost of silver (probably stolen)  and the time to make a cast. And with most of the coins selling in the $200-$600 range, I would guess they are making a tidy profit. And since there does not seem to be a lot of interest in tracking these guys down, the risk / return ratio is pretty good,
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« Reply #122 on: February 04, 2006, 09:58:34 pm »

Postumus, all this coins are fakes  Shocked
Mario
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« Reply #123 on: February 06, 2006, 04:47:26 am »

Mario,
Yes, all these coins are fakes! For those who do not make use of the Fakes boards, then you should look through on a regular basis and familiarise yourself with the coins in there. These coins may well be bought and subsequently sold on, hopefully they will be noticed in time. Our members should be able to protect themselves from buying these.

As a moderator here I would like to thank postvmvs for his efforts. I went into the fakes board to add these coins and found that postvmvs had added many, and added comments to those where the image had simply been re-used. I have added the remaining items and added those new images that match different images of the same coin with links to the original image in the submission.

Regards,
Martin
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Mark Wetzel
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« Reply #124 on: February 06, 2006, 07:54:45 am »

Hey everyone, glad to find an outlet to vent about the scammers on ebay. Of course ebay is slow to respond as if they just ignore it and it will go away. When I saw the 9 hour auction go up I paced around yelling at the bidders but obviously they could not hear and kept pushing the prices. Then it occured to me that if I won an auction right away I could leave negative with the "BEWARE COIN SCAM GOING ON"!!!!!!!!! so thats what I did. This stayed up until the auctions were over and I can only hope some saw it. As soon as the auctions ended the feedback went private. I now notice multiple negatives building. Unfortunatly I got a negative, quite funny actually. "tryed to pay using fake money" Im sure it will go a way when he de-registers. I was hoping we could all bid next time huge and win them all as a group effort. Kinda like throwing yourself in front of a train but I think it is worth it if we truly are a community, what do you all think? Mark     
 ps (my ebay is 62-play-dough 250 pos 1 neg for now)
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Authentication, Fakes and Frauds (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Toronto Group « previous next »
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