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Author Topic: Zeugma temple  (Read 6378 times)

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Offline Numerianus

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Zeugma temple
« on: April 04, 2005, 12:50:12 pm »
Recently I added to my small collection  a few provincial coins.
This one, a large bronze of Elagabalus (32 mm),  is from Zeugma.  My attention was attracted
with the reverse depicting  a temple. Usual description  is:

"ZEVGMATEWN, tetrastyle temple of Zeus(?) with
     peribolos containing grove of trees, capricorn right in ex."

"Viersäuliger Tempel auf der Akropolis von Zeugma mit Vorhof und Säulenhalle, alles auf einem zweistufigen, ungleich langen Unterbau; darunter Capricorn."

"Temple on hill over looking wooded foreground bounded by colonnade and two-storey facade. Capricon right in exergue." (desriptin from ANS  Database)

The architecture seems quite interesting. I would interprete the whole structure as  "a temle on the
rocky hill  with  a pair of stairs from both sides".  It seems that this can be confirmed by the
image on the earlier  coin of Antoninus Pius, see
[DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]


I know that  Zeugma is an important archeological site. Is this temple identified?
 

Offline slokind

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Re:Zeugma temple
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2005, 07:13:47 pm »
I bet there's a lot on the inundation of Zeugma on line!  There have been programs in places like Discovery and A&E channels and, I think, even one on PBS.  It is a very famous coin of a very famous site.  See also in Price & Trell, Coins and their Cities.  P.L.

Offline curtislclay

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Re:Zeugma temple
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2005, 08:03:19 pm »
   There is confusion, shown in the descriptions Numerianus copies, over whether the ladderlike structures reaching up to the temple are stairs up a mountain or the colonnade of a courtyard before the temple.
    Or maybe both, Price and Trell suggest:  "At Zeugma, the temple of Zeus certainly stood at the top of the mountain, with a portico at the foot...; but the colonnades placed on the coin at either side of the mountain, may well represent the courtyard in which the temple actually stood.  In this case the artist has combined a perspective view of the temple, forecourt, mountain, and portico into a single design." (p. 24)
     I take it from Price and Trell's silence in this regard, that by 1977 no actual remains of this temple at Zeugma had been observed or excavated.  I doubt there is literary or inscriptional evidence for this temple either, meaning that we know it only from the coins.  The evidence for calling it a temple of Zeus is apparently the naked, seated, male statue holding a scepter, that the coins depict inside the temple.
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Offline Numerianus

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Re:Zeugma temple
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2005, 02:58:55 am »
I make some exercises  with photoshop to show you reverses  of the other coins  of the 3rd century.
Sometimes  there is an impression that this is bird's eye view of the temple, as from another
mountain. Apparently,  engravers  working in  Zeugma  should  know well what they are
engraving. Nevertheless, sometimes there are obvious errors.

Offline Numerianus

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Re:Zeugma temple
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2005, 03:00:00 am »
Another sequence:

Offline Numerianus

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Re:Zeugma temple
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2005, 03:04:15 am »
Now the  view of the temple a hundred years earlier.  I provide also the description in German:
 ZEUGMA. Antoninus Pius, 138-161. Bronze. Kopf mit L. und kurzem Bart n. l. Rv. Z?U-GMA-T??N Auf dem Dach stehender(!) viersäuliger Rundtempel mit zweistufigem Unterbau auf einem kegelförmigen Hügel, der mit einer hohen Abschrankung aus einem zweifachen Plattenfries umgeben ist; im Felde r. A 10,57 g. BMC 124, 2. SNG München 415var. (dort im Felde B). Selten. Knapper Schrötling. Gutes sehr schön
Aus Liste J. Elsen, Brüssel 64 (1984), 29. - Zeugma war von Seleukos I. (306-280) als Seleukeia auf dem rechten Ufer des Euphrat gegründet worden, gleichzeitig mit der Zwillingsstadt Apameia am linken Ufer; seit Alexander dem Großen bestand an dieser Stelle ein übergang über den Fluss. Seit einigen Jahrzehnten erst ist die Lage der Stadt Seleukia bekannt und ihr Name tauchte in jüngster Vergangenheit in der Fachpresse öfters auf, soll sie doch unter den Wasserfluten des Birecik-Staudammes (mit einer Fläche von 56 km2) für immer verschwinden. Notgrabungen haben grossartige Mosaiken, Wandgemälde, Bauten und Grabmonumente zutage gefördert, die vom Wohlstand der Stadt zeugen und die nur z.T. gerettet werden konnten, s. L. Schofield, Zeugma on the Euphra- tes / Zeugma Rescue Excavations, MINERVA 12/5 (2001), 25ff. So werden zukünftigen Generationen nur noch die Münzen beweisen, dass die Stadt einen auf einem Hügel (Akropolis?) gelegenen (Zeus-)Tempel besass, der über zwei Stufenreihen erschlos- sen war. Der Tempelbezirk war mit einem zweigeschossigen, aus quadratischen Platten bestehenden Peribolos abgeschlossen. Das vorliegende Münzbild weicht vom später überlieferten Schema ab (s. nachfolgende Nrn.): Der Hügel hatte eine Kegelform, die Stufen sind nur angedeutet. Der Tempel ist ein Rundbau, der zudem auf der vorliegenden Prägung auf dem Dach zu stehen scheint.  


Offline curtislclay

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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2005, 01:52:30 am »
The German description avers that on this coin of Ant. Pius, the temple atop the mountain is shown UPSIDE DOWN!  Apparently they see a temple with horizontal base and domed roof, shown upside down!
This seems so crazy and mysterious, that I think it can't be right.  Let us rather assume a flat-roofed temple, right side up, the "roof" of the upside-down temple being instead part of the mountain!
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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2005, 03:09:00 am »
O-la-la!  I missed this "Auf dem Dach stehender(!)"  trying  to understand the detailed comment. Without this hint
I  believed that in the time of Antoninus Pius  the mountain was  simply more wild and irregular.  The flat roof (of a circular building) is also quite unusual.  There is an explanations why the temple could be depicted upside down  (supposing that it was not a case of sabotage):  a reflection of the construction in a pool in front of it. 

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2005, 03:02:38 pm »
So the coin type depicts a reflecting pool?  Anyway no mirror could reverse the temple only, but  not the mountain on which it was built!
The standard temple on mountain type also appears on coins of Antoninus Pius at Zeugma, Sear 1492 with photo.
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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2005, 04:43:49 pm »
OK, I agree that my suggestion is not well-founded. Here are another examples of Antoninus Pius at Zeugma.
Apparently,  the  constructions from both sides do not follow straight lines to be interpreted as collonades. 

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2005, 04:51:56 pm »
Now an argument in favor that  it might be stairs, constructed  symmetrically from both side of a rock. 
The example is a coin of  another  city but probably temples were built using similar patterns.
Here there is  know doubts about stairs leading to a temple on a rocky mountain.

 SAMARIA, Neapolis. Elagabalus. 218-222 AD. Æ 21mm (9.72 gm). Laureate and cuirassed bust right, seen from behind; square countermark on neck / Mt. Gerizim showing the temple in perspective, altar, stair, colonnade, roadway, and shrines in the face of the rock. Rosenberger 39; SNG ANS 1003; BMC Palestine pg. 60, 95. VF, red-brown patina.

A fine representation of the sacred mount of the Samaritans.

Offline featherz

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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2005, 05:06:35 pm »
I used to have several  nice coins from Zeugma, but all that is currently left is this one, which is very similar to the original poster's coin..


Offline Numerianus

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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2005, 05:25:08 pm »
I would say, with the same reverse  die.

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2005, 04:40:36 am »
I lack imagination to unterprete  the objects on this  embarassing example:

Offline whitetd49

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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2005, 08:14:33 am »
I can't imagine why you would be embarassed by this interesting coin!  Wayne Sayles describes these as an aerial view of the temple and the fronting courtyard (peribolos) containing a grove of trees.
If you watch long enough, even a treefrog is interesting.  Umberto Eco
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2005, 08:39:03 am »
It's not only interesting, it's a nice example if the obverse is as good! All it lacks is a patina, and that's not too serious.
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Offline Numerianus

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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2005, 11:35:42 am »
In the reply #3 I  wrote that some images could  be interpreted as an aerial  view (known on some Roman coins), ieventually,  a view from a mountain nearby. The last example disclaims this because  presumable columns are wrongly directed! This is  very strange: engravers depicted a very familiar  construction.
Moreover,  irregular forms (``trees") on the other coin are, certainly,   huge stones.   

Offline slokind

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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2005, 01:01:48 pm »
How things are represented on coins is a question that, as Price and Trell understood, requires studying the whole body of the coins (in this instance, with large architectural complexes shown) and associated evidence (in this instance, what we can glean concerning what might be seen in sanctuaries).  There is plenty of evidence for trees in a peribolos (or around an altar, as at Amaseia) but none for a peribolos full of bouders, which would be extremely large ones.  The coins themselves, taken together, strongly suggest that the most characteristic features were sometimes combined quite differently from what would appear from any given vantage point or any given distance.  Consider the size of the people shown in the forum at Laodicea (Price and Trell, fig. 22, also on a color plate), which also has the columns laid out at angles on both sides.  What can be said for sure is that the engravers exerted considerable ingenuity in finding ways to show whatever was deemed most important about the place.  The coins endeavoring to show the Athens Acropolis or Corinth's Acrocorinthus testify to their willingness and ingenuity: these are not views, vedute, vistas.
Patricia Lawrence

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2005, 02:20:44 pm »
I  follow your recommendtion starting from a scratch and not supporting existing interpretations
which could be done using even more limited material at hand as now available after a few clicks.
Of course, I shall try to find some information about the temple from the ground but failed.
Now my fantasy  suggest two interpretations:  a periibolos full of trees and a temple on a  cliff
with two ladders.

The first one  fails to explain an irregular curve shape on earlier  coins,
The  shape of the collonnades varies that it is impossible to understand  from which point or even points
 they could be seen.  The image on the last  coin is the most confusing (probably, done by
formal mechanical  copying which led to lost of the essential features need to the image perception). 
(The discussion about the interpretations of images, artists ideas, the means they used
is frequent here; unfortunatly,  there is no clear understanding - it would be nice to learn  whether   there  are theoretical studies about this).

The second interpretations with two ladders (and no periolos).
Much easier to imagine.  Irreguar  shape  can be  explained by successive  reconstructions and improvements.
It is supported by the coin from Samaria with  a  temple on a rock and a ladder leads to it.

So, where is an inconcisteny in this reasoning?  What I need is  to get from ``knowledgeable"
persons a hint, a new idea,  or an indication which  extra sources could be used  to conclude....   

In general, I have an admiration for the acient artsts.  In the sequences posted in tread  on Roman portaits it is clear that they were not only skillful and  followed  strong cultural traditions. More important, they liked  their work and were proud of it ... 
 

Offline Jochen

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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2006, 07:04:36 pm »
Hi!

Because I could recently get one of these types from Zeugma for my collection I remembered this interesting thread. Now are some years gone since 1977 and much more information is gained. Now it seems that the depicted temple has stood on the Acropolis of Zeugma where ruins resp. fundaments of this(?) temple could be found.

I don't think that we could see ladder-like stairs on the rev. of these coins, but these structures belong to the peribolos of the groove of trees. Here I have some sites with the state of the art of archaeological research:
http://www.arts.uwa.edu.au/Classics/archeology/Z2.html
 http://www.ist.lu/zeugma/home.html.

Now I have two questions:
1) Sometimes the figur in the temple is called City-Goddess or Tyche, sometimes Zeus or especially Zeus Kataibates. I found an advice to the following article: Antonio Miguel de Guadán, "El abatón de Zeus Kataibates en Zeugma de Commagene según las representaciones monetarias," ActaNum 2 (1972), pp. 1-18.
Anyone who does know this article?

2) The capricorn in the ex. of the rev. is known as zodiacal sign of Augustus. Now I have read that eventually it could be the sign of the Legio IIII Scythica which was stationed in Zeugma. Anyone who can proof or deny this suggestion?

Any information highly appreciated!

Best regards

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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2006, 08:07:28 pm »
Jochen, I am so glad you brought this thread up! Besides being a good a read, it reminded me of one of my unattributed. After a long dig I found it and sure enough it is.
I do have to say the detail on your reverse is spectacular.  I am partial to desert pantinas though.

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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2006, 06:00:31 am »
The answer of the second question I have found. The sign of the Legio IIII Scythica was the capricorne! http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/239996 Sorry, there is no reference for it.

It is an interesting type indeed and worth of deeper research!

Best regards

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Zeugma temple
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2006, 03:07:37 am »
One more example:

 

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