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Author Topic: A Forum for the Follis  (Read 29601 times)

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Offline Rupert

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2005, 06:23:59 am »
"Greece" was not one state but a mass of poleis big and small, with everybody speaking their own dialect, which in turn belonged to one of the bigger group of dialects like Doric, Ionian etc. So the Eleans still wrote WALEION in classical times, the Corinthians had their Qoppa on the coins (it's another question whether these latters were still used in everday life and "normal" words!), and many of the staters of Heracleia Lucaniae still show a Greek H (not Eta!) in the fourth and even third century BC. It looks like a T turned 90° counterclockwise and precedes the initial Eta in the ethnic, so it must be the H. I marked the letter in the pic, which is from Coinarchives and unfortunately shows a coin not belonging to me.

Rupert
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Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2005, 05:31:44 am »
All Follis Lovers:

Do not miss Ben B's post under "Coin of the Day.  It's a Max Daza with a reverse IOVI PROPAGAT ORBIS TERRARVM.

PLEASE PUT YOUR REACTIONS TO MY POST ON THAT SITE.  I think i will get some responses for this great coin.

All i can do is say the 6th letter of the old Greek alphabet -- WAU.

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Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2005, 12:47:59 pm »
CLARITY OR PERSONALITY

Last Sunday, I found a follis not from my field.  I snapped it up:

CONSTANTIVS IVN NOB CAESConstantius II, r., laur., dr., cuir. /CLARITAS REIPUBLICAE.  Sol [Apollo] stands l., raises r. hand, holds globe in l., chlamys across l. shoulder; B SIS in ex.   2.1 mm, 2.86 gm.  RIC7 Siscia 37.

I usually stop my collection at 212/213 – the demise of Daza, the closing of the Ostia mint, or the end of RIC6.  The little follis I bought Sunday is an RIC7 coin, but it had several points to recommend itself.

1. It’s the last bow for the old gods at the Siscia mint.  Their appearances are few at other mints from 317.  Victory hangs on, but she was only a genius, not a great god.
2. Constantius II, named after grandfather Constantius I, has been promoted to Caesar at 3 years of age.  The portrait shows a young teenager.
3. Constantine I’s favorite god, Sol [Apollo], is no longer a comes  -- an official rank at court.  He, maybe, and maybe not, has a new title "claritas," which like "comes" is a Latin noun. 
Claritas  --atis, feminine (clarus) clearness, brightness, brilliancy.  Transferred meanings: clearness of the mind, plainness, fame, a celebrity, renown.

The meanings clearness, brightness and brilliancy certainly go with the sun [Sol].  Of the transferred meanings, the nouns, clearness of mind, plainness, fame and renown don’t fit and sometimes don’t make sense.  What about a celebrity?  A celebrity is a famous person who has not done much, if anything at all.  Think nighttime TV, which speaks of models and show contestants with the same seriousness as heads of state and inventors.

Now back to claritas.  Sol [Apollo] in the view of pagans had performed many deeds.  He is more than a personality.  What about the 3-year-old Constantius II?  "Personality of (or for) the State" fits him perfectly.  What is probably intended:  "Constantius, Junior, noble Caesar, a [new] Personality for the State."

What is probably implied:  "A bright, brilliant, renowned personality [who will be leader] of the State."

Note:  Chlamys: Large upper garment of wool, often of purple and gold, worn in Greece, Cicero, Virgil.

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Offline Rupert

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2005, 02:14:12 pm »

All i can do is say the 6th letter of the old Greek alphabet -- WAU.

Follibus Fanaticus
BTW, in German the letter V, although not 6th but 22th in the alphabet, is pronounced F, except in foreign words where it's pronounced like English V, and named "Vau". Talk about ancient heritage in everyday life!

Rupert
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2005, 05:57:30 pm »
Re: Clariitas Reipvblicae

Diocletian had issued an ant with a similar "Claritas Avgg" reverse featuring Sol for Maximianus as Caesar, as well as for himself, so I would assume Constantine's "Claritas Reipvblicae" - issued for his new Caesars - to be inspired from this type. The other type Constantine issued for the new Caesars, Principi Ivventvtis, was also a traditional one for the occasion.

Given the choice of Sol to go with the Claritas legend in both cases, I'd guess that the meaning of Claritas would be related to the concept of the brightness - perhaps the bright future of the republic given the new generation of Caesars. The Claritas type, issued from 317-318, overlapped with the Soli Invicto Comiti type, which also ended in 318, so Sol's appearance here can't be considered as a "demotion"... in fact as late as 326 he appeared on a solidus crowning Constantine!

Ben

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2005, 12:47:20 pm »
If PRINCIPI IVVENTNTIS was a taditional type for new Caesars, how does that jibe with Constantine's retention of it in his early days as Augustus?
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2005, 01:39:55 pm »
If PRINCIPI IVVENTNTIS was a taditional type for new Caesars, how does that jibe with Constantine's retention of it in his early days as Augustus?

I don't know - it's an interesting question. I've seen this anomoly questioned before (in Failmezger?). I think he continued to use the type all the way up to c.312!

It's a reverse legend that goes a long way back - perhaps someone who knows something about the history of it may be able to shed some light on it.

The only guess that comes to mind is that perhaps Constantine saw himself (or wanted to portray himself) as representing a younger generation, and so clung to the appelation "prince of youth", but I'm not sure if the legend really refers to the "prince" himself or his subjects.

Ben

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2005, 03:46:34 pm »
I have one dated by RIC to late 312-313.
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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2005, 06:45:10 am »
Hello
I found this follis recently.Maximinus ll Daia.Can anybody tell me RIC number.
Thank you

Offline HT

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2005, 08:54:24 am »
For Diocletian's Edicts see:
http://www.tulane.edu/~august/handouts/601ccdoc.htm
From the website there are 3 names for 3 denominations of Fel Temp Reparatio coinage, they are maiorina, centenionalis and nummus. So the type of horseman and galley are maiorina, the barbarian and double-captive are centenionalis and the phoenix is the lowest. Later the two lower denominations were cancelled. So what is the name of the remained (debased) horseman? Maiorina or centenionalis or nummus?
Why the dealers around the world are just calling the FTR coinage as centenionalis and half-centenionalis? From the website http://www.coinusmaximus.us/denominations.htm, I found the terms double-centenionalis, centenionalis and half-centenionalis. Is the double-centenionalis mean the 'pecunia maiorina'(Chi-Rho coins?) of Magnentius and Decentius? Now we still have two terms centenionalis and half-centenionalis. Maybe the centenionalis is the horseman and/or galley and the half-centenionalis is barbarian and captive. How about the phoenix one? Still calling the nummus?
And what is the value of the coins from Constantine the Great in FTR coinage? They are counted as the nummus (smallest denomination)?
Please help, thanks very much!!

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2005, 01:54:12 pm »
My understanding:

1. There are no Constantine the Great FTR coins.

2. There is no general agreement about how to exactly apply the terms Maiorina and Centenionalis, the name Centenionalis is usually applied to the AE2 size coin, some apply the term Maiorina to the AE1 size coins (e.g. Julian's Bull) but others argue it is simply a synonym for CentenionalisRIC takes the conservative approach of just using the labels "AE1", "AE2" etc. based on size. 

3. Terms like "half-centenionalis" and "double-centenionalis" are modern inventions for coins for which we do not know the ancient name.  The use of the terms by dealers is probably reflective of what catalogue they use.

4. The word nummus literally means "coin".  It is argued that it is a better term for the coin usually called the follis, accepted by (among others) Patrick Bruun the author of RIC VII. It definitely comes into play after the reform of Anastasius where the large letters on Byzantine coins indicate multiples of nummi (e.g. M = 40 nummi).

Steve

Offline PeterD

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2005, 02:15:07 pm »
HT: If you find the answers, please let me and everyone else know!!

The web-site I quoted seems to contain the notes for students of Kenneth W. Harl, who wrote 'Coinage in the Roman Economy'. He, like many writers, writes as if what he is saying is a done deal. In fact nobody knows exactly what the denominations and values were in this period.

The names pecunia maiorina, centenionalis and nummus come from contemporary documents but simply mean 'big money', 'a hundredth of something' and 'small coin'; no exact indication as to what they refer. The chronology is something like this:

318 AD: VLPP coins (which some call a Centenionalis) replace the Follis. This, with other designs, goes up and down in size (different denominations? who knows) until...

348 AD: The FTR series is introduced. There are two slightly different sizes of Centenionalis  with 'Falling horseman', 'barbarian/hut' and other designs with a smaller phoenix type as 'Half Centenionalis'. The larger type of Centenionalis was mainly struck in the west and the smaller in the east. They may have had different values, but again who knows?

350: Magnetius produced a large coin that is often called a Double Centenionalis. Some have speculated that it was produced because he did not have enough silver to make silver coins.

354: Constantius II banned the 'pecunia maiorina'. Which one was he referring to? Take your pick.

The problem is, of course, is that to assign a value to a coin we need to know how many there were to a silver or gold coin - or if they were in fact still tied to one another at this stage. Was size/weight that important? It must have been difficult keeping track if it was.
Peter, London

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Offline dougsmit

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2005, 05:13:08 pm »


348 AD: The FTR series is introduced. There are two slightly different sizes of Centenionalis  with 'Falling horseman', 'barbarian/hut' and other designs with a smaller phoenix type as 'Half Centenionalis'. The larger type of Centenionalis was mainly struck in the west and the smaller in the east. They may have had different values, but again who knows?

It was my understanding that the three coins of 348 differed in terms of silver content and were an attempt to restore a system of denominations.  Working from memory, the second with left facing busts contained about half the silver of the so calling one half or double something makes sense.  I still believe the best answer is that we don't know.  Never assume a coin of earlier period had a value in terms of later systems.  Call-ins and recoinage of metal was a (how common?) practice. 

Offline HT

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2005, 09:00:16 am »
318 AD: VLPP coins (which some call a Centenionalis) replace the Follis. This, with other designs, goes up and down in size (different denominations? who knows) until...
VLPP coins? What they are?
1. There are no Constantine the Great FTR coins. 
In here I'm asking about the old coins, such as 'campgate' and 'double victory' in FTR coinage: Were they abolished or...!?
And I know another type of centenionalis: emperor with double labarum. But the coins (of this type) do not bear the words 'Fel Temp Reparatio' but 'Concordia Militvm'. I don't call this type as pecunia maiorina only the type of Magnetius. Can anyone tell me more about them?
Here is my personal calling for late Roman coins:
294-347AD:follis, debased follis, AE
348-361AD:centenionalis(half or debased whatever...) for FTR coinage, AE for Vetranio
361-end of 4th century: AE
from 5th century-498AD:nummus, AE
Anyway, thanks for helping!

Offline PeterD

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2005, 11:46:06 am »
HT

VLPP is shorthand for "VICTORIAE LAETAE PRINC. PERP." or double-victory type of Constantine. This may just have been a different design for the reduced Follis or a completely new coin. We don't know.

Just about all the names, Follis, Centenionalis etc., were assigned in modern times from names in ancient writings, but we do not know what they were actually called by the people using them. Which makes it difficult to place them into any sort of system of denominations.

As you say, 'FTR' normally refers to the coins from 348, but there were other designs and inscriptions so it is unlikely that these indicated denomination (see below). Whether coinage prior to 348 was de-monetised is difficult to say. Re-calling the coinage en masse would be expensive, disruptive and unpopular, so it may just have been phased out or fitted into the new system.

Doug,

Harl states that Constans minted in the larger denomination in the West with an "A" on it, while Constantius II minted the smaller one in the East with an "N" on it and that they circulated in competition with each other. Of the handful of coins of the FTR period that I have, none have an "A" or an "N". On the other hand the weights vary across the range from 7.4 gms to 2.4gms. The Phoenix coins on the other hand, seem to be fairly consistent. As I said, there are many theories, but I for one am still confused.
Peter, London

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Misanthropus

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #65 on: May 08, 2005, 05:17:01 am »
For whatever it is worth, I thought I'd include a scan of the follis which started my interest in these coins.

Harry

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #66 on: May 08, 2005, 05:28:10 am »
My previous post showed my very first follis, but I thought I'd follow that up with a scan of my "rarest," albeit not my favorite.

Harry

Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #67 on: May 14, 2005, 07:35:50 pm »
Readings -- First Book  Is poetry usefull?

I chanced upon two books in Borders that may or may not put some light on the follis.  For those disinterested in folles, see recommendation at end.

1.  --. "Hesiod, Homeric Hymns, Homerica." [trans. Hugh G. Evelyn-White, ed. Jeffrey Henderson] Loeb Classical Library [LCL 57], Cambridge, Mass., {1914} reprinted 2000.  657 pages. [Greek & English texts.]

For Homeric Hymn No. 2, "To Demeter" [pp. 288-324], the Introduction can be found on pp. xxxv-xxxvi.  It reads: ... THE DIGAMMA IS STILL ACTIVE.

A fuller version from p. xxxvi reads:  "It [Hymn to Demeter] is surely Attic or Eleusinian in origin.  Can we in any way fix its date?  Firstly, it is not later than the beginning of the sixth century,..., for the Dionysiac element was introduced at Eleusis at about that period.  Further, the absence of Triptolmeus and Eumolpus point to considerable antiquity, and the DIGAMMA is still active [caps, mine].  All these considerations point to the seventh century as the probable date of the hymn."

No digammas are printed in the Greek text; however, it will probably not scan [and I did not try this] without proper digamma insertion.  Remember, this poem was sung to large audiences.  Get a chorus to sing "The Messiah" without any "double-you's."  You get:  But -ho may abide; The people that -alked in darkness; I kn'a'- that my Redeemer livith; The Lord gave the -ord; and Oh death, -ere is thy sting.  In the last two, word and -ord[er] do not change meaning too much, but death's sting goes before something in the second.  Dropping an English "double-you" turns a question into a statement.

Praise to the generations of scholars who straightened out this mess and gave us the Hymn in its real meaning.  Pity the poor grad student who gets this as a translation project.

RECOMMENDATION:  No one who collects the Greek or Roman Provincial coinages should be without this book.  The Homeric Hymns will help explain many a perplexing reverse.

Also:  The book contains all [? -- 1914?] fragments and synopses of 10 epic poems that were sung at festivals.  [Only two such things survive -- The Iliad and the Odyssey.] The early versions contain variant stories.  For example, "The Story of Oedipus," poem by Cinaethon [attributed sometimes to Homer] says that Oedipus had no children by Jocasta.  "His sons were borne of Eurgyganeia as the writer of the Epic called the Story of Oedipus clearly shows." [p. 483]  What would Sigmund Freud say to that?

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Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2005, 05:27:15 pm »
FORWARD WITH FOLLISES

I am now closing the gap on one follis from each mint for each ruler from c. 294 to 318.  The collection must grow or die, so I grew it, I now collect all follises from all mints of Diocletian as Emperor and as Senior Emperor, Max Herc for both first and second reigns, plus retired issues.  Constantius I as Caesar and as Augustus, plus Divus issues.  Galerius as Caesar, and Augustus, plus Divus issues.

I do not collect too much of Severus II.  Too many are on the market for too high prices.  Present pricing ignores recent finds.  One coin as Caesar, one coin as Augustus – till prices become realistic.

Maxentius as Caesar – none found – and as Augustus, an abundance.  Only one Romulus, a nice Ostia mint, graces my collection.  I shall not go out of my to find one from Rome.

Now we get to a new division: Constantine, big; Constantine, small.  Licinius I, big;, Licinius I, small but not "real" small [not past about 318].  Titles mater little on these coins, but reverses loom large.  I like a full size follis for "big."  For small, I like one that will fit snugly into a U.S. half cent album.

I have only one Licinius II and am not looking for more.  They are mostly "real" small.

Galeria Valeria fills only one place.  I look at them, but they are usually ugly, overpriced coins.  Prices have not fallen in line with the abundance of coin finds.

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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2005, 09:00:41 am »
Follibus,
Have you heard anything specific about recent Severus II finds?

Ben

Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2005, 07:43:09 pm »
No.  I have heard nothing.

I see many Severus II’s at most shows.  The metal detector has made them common.  I simply will not buy any – especially the Genius types – till the prices fall significantly. I need many other follises, now that I have expanded my collecting goals.

I got a goodie today by mail.  Maximianus Herc., Second Reign, Summer 307, LondonRev. HERCULI CONSERVATORI.  [PLN] Hercules stands with club, bow and lion skin.  It’s an EXF that’s better than the plate in RICRIC VI 91.

Now, there’s a coin I think is worth a high price.
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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2005, 08:34:02 pm »
Follibus,
Could you post a picture of your HERCVLI CONSERVATORI? That's certainly a nice find.. issued by Constantine for Maximianus due to the latter having fixed him up with his daughter, Fausta! Was that an auction purchase?

I agree that Severus II's don't seem so rare, but I'm not sure about recent finds. Since Severus II's mints were mostly in Italy (+Carthage), where metal detectiing and selling of hoards is verboten, it seems that there wouldn't be so many recent finds coming to market of his coins as for, say, a more eastern emperor such as Licinius.

Ben

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2005, 12:16:08 am »
Ben:

My hobby is coin collecting, not photography.  I own neither a camera that can photograph a coin non any device to get pictures into my computer.  The photo in RIC is almost as nice as my coin.  How is mine better?  With a glass, I saw that Hercules was definitely not Jewish.

No to the auction.  A dealer told me about it at the ANA, and I delivered the quickest check in the West.  He mailed it to me, and I got it yesterday.  It proved to be evern a better coin than he told me about.

I do have a 2d reign Max Herc, Genius type, from London in almost as nice condition.  It is dated to 308.  Genius is draped, code for his demotion from full god to a mascot.

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Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #73 on: August 29, 2005, 12:47:53 pm »
DUMPSTER DIVING

TO FOLLIBUS F., the pursuit of coins is a hobby to be done in leisure time.  If you are in a rush, go to the coin show with someone else.  Take my latest adventure:

I was patiently perusing a load of outright junk.  The fellow I had driven to the show found himself a ride.  I inspected the junk with my aging eyes, then bought it and dumped it into a plastic sandwich baggie.  I inspected at home at leisure.  One junko looked strange.  I put the big glass on it.  I made out – around a Postumus-like portrait – the letters.....LIAN.  Yes it was an RIC 6 Laelian.  I viewed ERIC for confirmation.

It was the VICTORY ADVANCED LEFT reverse.

It made my day, my week, my month.  Hobbies are leisure activities.  It does not pay to rush.

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Offline Rupert

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Re: A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #74 on: August 29, 2005, 01:17:33 pm »
This is absolutely correct. Unfortunately, we don't always have the time. But be sure to post a pic of your Laelianus!!!

Rupert

PS: Congratulations!
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